00:49 Hey, welcome back to the show. And today I've got Scott with us to talk about something we normally don't talk about that I'm super intrigued in. Scott, let's get started. Who are you and what do you do? 

01:00 Hi, I'm Scott Hayford. I'm the CEO of Black Hays Group, which is a  technology consulting company. Focused on assisting, uh, early tech into the government space, government acquisitions, mainly in the department of defense, but we also do DHS, law enforcement,  department of justice, department of transportation, NASA. So we do expand into those areas. It just depends on the technology. 

01:25 I love it. That is something that a lot of people are interested in, but I have no idea how to get connected with. So I'm eager to hear about how, how and why, like. What you clearly looking at your wall behind you, you, you're a highly decorated military man. How does that translate? And what is it that you're trying to help other people, the civilian, uh, developers and designers, how are you able to make that translation work into military?  

01:52 So there, there are a lot of consultants out there. It's, uh, my discovery was both in uniform and out of uniform was that there was a lot of early stage tech companies.  Uh,  want to get into the space, but then when they do get into the space, they spend a lot of money on the consultant and end up running outta money because it takes usually about three to five years to get into the government and get to a sustainable level, uh, right within the contracting process. And so we wanted to create a model, or I wanted to create a model that allowed them to spend more their runway, keep their runway going longer. and build that relationship with them over time. And so that's what we've created now. Um, I went from myself, uh, five years ago, and now we're up to 22 individuals as part of the team to do this. And, uh, the other part of this is to find a job that one enjoyed. But two could do in the latter years of life. Um, so be able to do it in your seventies. I don't golf and that's my running joke on that is, you know, my hobby is, uh, and for a lot of military individuals, a lot of times you discover that your hobby is the military or, or that lifestyle or that, you know, 16 hours a day work ethic. So, I love that. Um, I wanted to find a way to help other individuals that don't necessarily wanna work 2080 hours a full, you know, full-time job. But they did wanna work and they wanted to do something where they contribute. And so that's how the company has grown up to the 22 now. And they also all recognize, um, we're not getting rich off of this. Our price point and what we're doing, it's more about right, what we get out of it purpose.  Um, then a financial reward. And so that's, that's where black case is now is, uh, we've had very respectable. 

03:39 Very respectable. And, and I, and I, I'm curious, you know, I, first of all, thank you for your service. I, I honestly, um, I've got a lot of military in my family and I, I know what a sacrifice it is. Uh, just having watched that happen, both my, and my dad and my brothers, and I've even got some nephews involved. And, um, I love, I love, the intensity with which you bring any activity due to the table. And, and most military people are that way, especially people who stick with it. And, and I want to ask you like, what, what is it about that transition from being in the military to trying to incorporate what you did and how you did it and who you did it with into, um, into something that's profitable and at least. You know, yeah, you don't golf, but like at least keeps you busy and keeps you occupied in a way that you feel like you are being productive. How hard is that?  

04:33 Uh, I think it is hard because there's always that what if, uh, you know, you can go to Northrop Grumman, you can go to a large industry, you could start a franchise nowadays, you start podcasts. There's lots of different options out there. And I think that's been the journey for me. Uh, and I actually have a paper that I write or I wrote that talks about transition. So for military individuals, especially, uh, I think in any career, when you finish that career, law enforcement, you know, anything that you have a career and then you end it, and then you have to look to go to where you go next, you can go to a small company, go to a big company, you can go to government service, you go to charity work, there's these other roads, and then it's a function of you, so for me, I went to the big company, I went to the small company, I knew I didn't want to do the government service thing because I felt I had done it for 30 years. I didn't need to keep doing that.  And, and I think that's the journey for everyone is, and sometimes you get lucky and the first one you hit, you love it, or maybe you don't love it, but you're not a risk taker. So you don't. You don't branch off and try something else. Um, I think for military individuals, you know, I'd love to say, Oh, they're all risk takers, but they're not, uh, you know, some are very like, Oh, no, I'm just going to go do this and I'm not going to do anything else after it,  but it's just each person to their own. And I think another part of that is, uh, they're risk tolerance based on like you, you have a large family and yeah, it's, it's hard to take those risks. And I'm sure, you know, you had those discussions, right? And I, and I think that's my advantage was, is my wife is retired military as well. So I, I have the ability. I was, I was able to take that risk. Um, a little bit more freely than others may be able to take. Uh, I'm a big proponent of, uh, healthcare, uh, any way you can get someone healthcare that gives you the freedom. So that's a, that's an interesting one being in the, you know, coming from the military, we always had healthcare. Now that we're out and retired, we have healthcare. So I have that ability to take that risk. So the kids all have health care, right? And I think that's a factor that a lot of people don't realize how, how much that gives you freedom in really pursuing what your passion is. 

06:45 And how you got your bases covered, you got your nut covered. There's a lot of things you can explore. Is that right? 

06:52 Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Well, you know, you still have to find the money to live, right? You have a roof over your head, that kind of thing. I think that's, but that healthcare component  is a very powerful one, especially if you have a family and you're, you're looking at that starting a company, right? And the risks there. And I think that's  a discussion point. And so in my case, the 22 individuals we have, Um, that they're either retired, so they have healthcare or they are in a job that has good healthcare. So they can come over and help with black K's. Maybe it's only part time for, for most of them, it's part time, but that's because that's what they want, right? They want that. Hey, I got 10 hours this month  and that works for a lot of people.  07:34 Right. Right. And, but what I love about what you're doing is twofold. One, you're providing that opportunity for other, other ex military to be able to like, Kind of make that transition, make things happen, but you're also taking civilians who want to contribute or, or they've got ideas. They've got stuff they want to introduce to the government sector, and they don't know how to get in the door on that. And you do. So you're helping people on the inside. You help people on the outside and, and basically you're leveraging your connections and your, uh, experience to be able to help both sides.So how does that like,  how well does that work? Like you, you mentioned you have a different type of consulting model. Help walk us through that. Cause I, I think of government contracting and I think, okay, anyone that connects the dots is making millions of dollars.  How's that different than, than what you're doing and why are you doing it the way you're doing it? 

08:26 So, um,  I think you have to recognize that it's. It's a function of time, right? And, and whatever they're bringing to the table, whatever technology, how are you communicating that technology to the government agencies and organizations? And so, uh, lost in translation that happens a lot. And so that's a lot of what we end up trying to do is try to help them translate. I, uh, I talked to a lot of CEOs about stop giving me adjectives  and, uh, they're like, what it's the best thing since sliced bread. It's awesome. It's fast. It's quicker. It's better. It's right. And you're like, no, stop, stop. Because guess what? The government, that's what they hear all day long is faster, better, quicker. That's not what they're listening for. They're listening for, uh, you're going to do this two times faster. You're going to do it two days sooner, you know, getting it down to more, you know, it's 2080 hour,  2080 hours in a work year. Right. So if you save me 80 hours. Then that translates into dollars, and that's what they're listening for. They're listening for what does it really do for me? Is it saving me minutes? Is it saving me hours, days, decades? So that's really what, a lot of what is being listened for. And so that's what we do, is we coach them through that aspect of it. Um, the time of year is a big deal. You coming to talk to a government person at the Pentagon is very expensive.  Between 5,000 to go visit Washington, D.C. for a week. Um, that expense, well, what do you, what's that return on investment for spending that time? And so we'll talk to them about that. Like, i. e., the administration changing. So that's great. You went to D.C. in December and spoke to Senator so and so  who just left office. How's that going to work out for you?  Right, right, right, right. And so that's part of the discussion we have with him. Are you talking to the right, the staffer in that senator's office?  Uh, is he in the right committee, you know, that you're trying to get a, so again, those are the things we try to help companies with in a smart way when and where, um, it's not rocket science. I don't know how many times I've heard a CEO say, Oh, that makes sense. But as a CEO, you're thinking about HR, CFO, you know, all the other things you're thinking about. Do you have time to think about this? And so we're that extra brainpower at an affordable price. That's our big thing is, is we don't take a percentage on an award. Our model is very low cost. Um, right. And then as you grow, hopefully you come to us and say, Hey, can I get more of that? Can I get more hours from you? Right. And then we grow with you as you grow. And that's, that's kind of our objective. Interesting. Success begets success, right?

11:23 Now. And that's the way it should work in all cases. But, uh, we often know that, uh, it doesn't always work out that way. Oftentimes,

11:37 That's. Uh, that's the one thing I've learned is sometimes you just have to step back and be like, all right, the person's, you know, working to try to feed their family. So get it.  Right. So it's just finding that happy medium.

13:24 So as you look back on, on, you know, going from just doing this on your own to building a team and, and, and recruiting these 22, 25 people or so that are helping you navigate this right now, what has been the, um, like,  is there one or two things you decided early on or somewhere in the middle to do differently? That kind of grew the demand for what you guys do.  

13:50 So interestingly enough, when I started, I started March of 2020. So COVID hit and I quit my job, not thinking about COVID at the time. And, you know, of course it happened. It was like, Oh, wow, that was interesting decision. Um, I was lucky. I, I, my first clients believed in what me and what, you know, what I could help them with and it, for most of them, they ended up, I think at that point I had 15 to 17 million in awards in that first year. Um, and that, that created the reputation and because of my low price point that they recommend many, so we don't do much marketing. It's, it's word of mouth between CEOs that has helped us grow.  And then, uh, about a year and a half ago, a friend of mine called me and says, I want to quit government service and I want to come with, join you. Um,  I had always been looking at like, how do I scale this? Very difficult to scale a one person business, especially in consulting. And I pretty much maxed out at about 20 companies, right? I had others, um, because my low cost model, you know, we don't door knock. There's certain things we don't do. We coach more, we're more like Sherpas. So I could do more companies than a normal consultant could do.  And so when he came on, I realized, Oh, there's something there. There's, there's other people that want to help, but they, they don't know how to help. And  the other thing I learned was it is expensive to be a consultant when they first start out as a consultant, as you know, you might have a lot of connections that help you fund, fund, you know, keep going, but at a certain point, you also have to do business development to grow your company.  Because companies fall out at certain points in the, in the future. And so, and so that grind for a lot of people, they don't want to, they don't want to do both. They don't want to realize, Oh wait, I'm doing five different hats right now. So I wanted to create a model where these other gentlemen and women that have joined me now, they can just focus on consulting. They don't have to focus on growing the company and growing more companies going. They just, they just consult, um, at their pace and, and I think the companies that hire us, it, they have a big bench. So we'll have a client who needs someone for one aspect. And that's a, Hey, I'd really like to talk to the Navy too. And we have someone that can help. So we have a broader spectrum of individuals that they can bounce between, which gives them a bigger network and gives it, I think they get more bang for their buck is, is what I, for sure. 

16:34 Yeah. For sure. No, that's awesome. So, so as you, as you look back on that, the, the first key thing was that you were, you, you know, you didn't realize the value of what you were doing until somebody actually came from the other side and said, dude, I want in and help you with this stuff. And then once you figured that out, you were able to network with your network and say, Hey guys, who's, who's going to help me get these clients networked and, and make some money while you do it. 

17:02 And it's worked. I mean, granted, you know, one month you might not have any, you know, money coming in and another month, uh, we had one of our guys, you know, 6,000 for the work he did for the month, uh, which, you know, was  out of the blue form and it works for him. And I, I think that's the, and we gave everyone an annual bonus at the end of the year based on everything we had done. So we handed out  bonuses. And so I think that works for everyone at this stage. 

17:30 That's awesome.  

17:31 Yeah. I  think the big thing about what we're doing is, is we're giving individuals purpose and they can do it into their sixties and seventies if they want to, right? It's, it's up to them. And that's the other part was we're giving people that flexibility that, Oh, I can keep going. Um, I watched my father decline after he had retired. And I, I often ask even some of my very wealthy friends and I hear them say, yeah, I'm going to retire, you know, in a couple of years. And you're like, what does retirement really mean?  Yeah, because I think in the 70s and 80s, even the 90s retirement was, Oh, I'm going to go off and play golf or, you know, that's not the same anymore. I don't think this generation thinks that way. I don't think so either. Yeah. So that's the question is, is what does retirement really mean? I mean, technically I could go off and, you know,  Not doing anything. In the sunset. Fine, right? We have a roof over our head. 

18:24 Well, you should consider taking up golf. I mean, it is a nice alternative. 

18:30 My dad was an avid golfer, and I think I joke about it, but, uh, he ended up hurting his back and then couldn't golf. And in that decline physically, um, so, you know, uh, there was a mental decline as you age, because it's not exercise. He read a lot, but at a certain point,  eyes had a hard time reading, you know? And that concerned me, um, just watching that  pathway and thinking, Oh, wait, so how do you keep the brain going? How do you, you know, keep purpose, right? How do you have a purpose and finding that  there's a lot of charity work you can do. Right. 

19:09 There's a lot of stuff you can do to stay busy. And I love that you're building this opportunity for people who, who want to stay active and want to stay connected to their connections and want to help leverage that and, and want to help people.

19:27 I think it's awesome, but walk us through like, you know, what are the challenges that people wanted to get into government contracting? I mean, what's the biggest hurdle that you find you're, you're helping people with? So the number one thing in the government space is.  The timeline, and if your business can understand what the timeline is, uh, the big emphasis right now in the U.S. government is dual use. So, does your product have a use that can be both used in the civilian world,  and in the government space. Interesting. Some people say, Oh, it's got to, you know, it's got to be the only solution. And I would tell you, no, it does not. And no, Congress does not want a sole source solution. They don't want that. It's bad for them because of course, you know, monopoly, that kind of thing. So they don't want that. There's, uh, interesting. And the other thing is I try to coach my art companies is it's okay to team with other companies. I know it's hard. It's hard to take a product and incorporate someone else's capabilities or tools or hardware. I know that's hard, but it's better to have four senators than two senators. And so having a recognition that there's more to it in out there in the process, you can have a government person leader that loves your technology.  And I don't know how many times I've heard a CEO tell me, Oh, well, so and so general admiral, you know, undersecretary loves the technology and that's great, but  that's not going to get you across the valley of death, um, as they call it, that, that period where you, you've, you've gotten to a certain point, but you still have to get to a programmer record and in the government, the programmer record is a five year program. So something they bring on, they're expecting that that product will exist for about, you know, at least be in the program for five years. So, you know, you have money coming in for the next five years. That's programmer record. And  a lot of these companies, they don't realize that. And so that's where that understanding, 

21:19 That's a crazy sales cycle.

21:20 It, it, it, well, it is, um, we're, we're, everyone's trying to figure out how to fix it, right? Because technology is moving faster than five years now. Right. You can have a product that within a year is obsolete and totally.  And that's the, and so a lot of times that's our, just coaching them through that process, understanding the timeline. A lot of companies don't realize the fiscal year ends one October and yet they'll come to me and say, well, I had so and so tell me they can get me a contract. In September and you're like, Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. You, so you have everything in place to do that. Well, and I'm like,  the end is one October. So hopefully they have money in the next year for you because that's where they're gonna have to get the money. Right. Um, and that's the part is a lot of times explaining them, just those nuances. There are plenty of books and guides. There's even free resources that the government offers to help companies. And we encourage people to leverage them. The reality is, is there's not enough government support to take care of all the companies trying to engage. So that, that becomes a challenge is, um, they can't handhold all the companies through the process. Um, so it's limited. So that's, you know, again, that's part of what we, we provide is just that coaching through it. Um, and the, I don't want to say we're the wet blanket, but we do, we are the people that tell them they're naked, uh, quite often is, Hey, you know, you're, This is, this might not make it. Um, maybe it's better to look, look, find a prime, like a Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, Lockheed, find one of those companies and maybe to become a sub, right? Become underneath them. The challenge with big companies is they're already looking so.  We are in fiscal year 25 right now. They're already working. The big primes are already working 2027, 2028. So 2026, they've probably already got lined up. They already know what they're going to go after. And they've already got their teams built of all the companies they're going to team with. So that's usually where we see a problem too, is someone will be like, I have a really great product. I'm going to bring it to a prime and be part of that. Okay. So you're hoping they'll. Fund you in 2027, right? Oh no, no, no. Next year, next year. And you're like, yeah, not quite. I have a hard time unless there's a crisis, right? If there's a crisis, right. The buckets out, I tell CEOs, like when COVID happened, it's like, get the bucket out because that's when, you know, Congress is going to throw money out the window as fast as they can.  Oh, so crazy. And then, and then once everyone figures it out, you know, there's no more money spilling out  lockdown.So you do have to realize that. So we do have those discussions with a lot of the CEOs as we progress through the process, which can be. 

24:21 So,  so I'm curious, cause we, you know, uh, probably a dozen years ago, I was in an industry where we felt like we had. Actually, probably more like 17 years ago or so, um, we had a, a business that we thought would be very relevant to military contracting or government contracting and, and we clearly did not know what we were doing. We tried to apply for several projects and several programs, and it was,  it was, you know, we had a lot of things stacked against us, you know, gender, race, uh, all the other stuff and, and no connections.  You know, a lot of people are looking at, Hey, I think I've got an idea for a government contract. How do you, you know, what's the first thing you tell them? Because it's, it's clearly not an easy game as opposed to just go on the civilian route and finding businesses that are, they have demand that year, they need to hire someone that year as opposed to forecasting out three or four years, like you're talking about. 

25:12 Yeah. So having stood up must wants as well. And that business process, one of the things I discovered, it's, it's very similar. You gotta, you need to do your homework. Um, and I, I don't dissuade companies. Uh, again, dual use is a big thing. If you only have a product that's for defense, which we have clients that are doing that, understand there's high risk and it's a longer road to, to get it in just because most of the government agencies and organizations are looking for dual use products that have dual use because they want to know that you, you have a roadmap and you have sustainability. It's about risk.  They want the product to have a lower risk. Meaning that it has a higher probability of whatever you're promising is going to be successful, right? And then you're going to deliver on what you're saying your product can do time machine and it's going to do it, right You can everyone can tell that but are you gonna really be able to do it? And that's what they want to see they want to hear that. Oh, yeah You know what? We've already built it for the civilian world and it works great and we can go back two minutes  Right. And so, Oh, you know what? That's great. But we needed to go back 10 hours. Right. And, Oh, okay. Right. Right. So we'll pay you, you know, trillion dollars to do that, but we needed to go back further than your two minutes. And yeah. And so that's, that's part of what they're looking for. And that's messaging. Um, you mentioned that the relationships, they definitely don't hurt. Um, can you get through the system without the relationships? Yes. Okay. Um, it may be a little bit more frustrating, but yes, you can, but relationships are the key. Awareness is probably the number one thing. Just like any business product, right? And I think that sometimes it's forgotten. Like a CEO will be like, Oh, I have this great thing.  Well, you know, you got to market it to the government too, right? You got to make them aware. It might be a little bit different, you know, social media. You're not going to go on TikTok and market your product to the government, right?  Not likely. And  in Facebook, you're not going to go on Facebook and get a government person to be like, Oh, that's a product. You know, there's, there's other ways. There's a conferences and events that you can attend. Um, I dissuade companies to bringing their whole team. I don't know how many times I've had CEOs bring their engineers with them.  And you're like, that's a very expensive BD person to bring to an event. Right. And versus, hey, just tell him to be on his phone between eight and five. While we're at the event and if a government person shows up that we have to have a conversation with that actually understands the tech  just hand on the phone  and they can ask the questions and we saw, but I, I joke about this, um,  if you walk into a room in DC with 10 government people in the room,  there is a 90 plus percent chance, eight of them will be poli sci history, maybe. English major.  

28:06 Is that right? 

28:07 Yeah. And it's, it's like that was, there's a psychology test where you ask 20 people in a room who has, and usually two people have the same birthday. 28:15 Yeah. Right. 

28:16 Yeah. There's a whole, but, and it's the same thing in the government when you ask, Hey, how many English degrees, poly sci history degrees. And you're looking around the room and I guarantee if there's 10 people in there, the eight of them will probably be that. And the two that are engineers,  most of the time there'll be systems engineers. Okay. So then you're like, Oh, wait, are they really engineers? And I'm a systems engineer, so I could say that, but you know, that's the, that's the other part. Uh, we joke about it all the time. Uh, you know, when you're talking to someone is, do they really understand what you're talking about? Right. Um, and how much it's like AI is a great example of individualization. Right. And the number one thing I heard between 2005 and 2020 was.  They don't know about, they don't know AI. They don't know what AI really is. And you would hear these people say this, and then you would go look at their bio and their background or like, wait a minute, they don't know what AI is. So it became, 

29:20 Well, I imagine there's so many nuances and, and honestly, like for those of you listening who have considered a government contract, uh, in, in what you're developing. And I know some people have been really successful with it. I know a lot of people that, that absolutely can't. They can't, they can't stand the waiting game long enough to get their product, even in the right circles to be noticed. And so, so Scott. I, I absolutely love this conversation. I think it's been super helpful to our audience and, and I hope it, it, you know, your growth experience and the way you've been building this, it demonstrates the kind of the pattern. It takes time. It takes time to figure out the right network, the right people, the right solution, make sure you're solving a problem. And then once you figure that out. Boom, you're from zero to, you know, one to 25 people in this case. It's, it's kind of the same thing. It takes a few years to kind of dial it in, dial it in, but then government contracting can work really, really well. Um, I love the advice you've given and, and I just, you know, we're going to put links because I, I love some of the other projects that you're, you've got in the works right now that, uh, we didn't get a chance to talk about. I want to put links to those in the, in the show notes to this today. But Scott, what, what, uh, what's your parting message? Like, what, if there's one thing you could suggest to those looking to grow into this type of contracting, what would it be?  

30:37 Uh, patience, you know, understand the roadmap and the timeline. And,  but it's, it's the companies that we've had that have been successful. Uh, it's definitely rewarding. It's, you know, from a perspective, not only from a financial perspective, but from a purpose, like, Hey, you're solving problems. Yeah. And remember the military is 18 to 38 years old. Um, you know, average age is 28. These are young individuals that are motivated. We want to keep them safe. Uh, and so, you know, it's worth the time and the energy and the effort. If you really do feel you have a strong product, but just understand it's a long road.

31:12 Yeah, that's smart.  

31:13 Dual use definitely can help you in a lot of our companies where they have that civilian product. Yeah,  they can, they have the capital to branch off and focus on the government. Um, and that, you know, again, that's part of it is, can you do it? And then do you have a product?  

31:30 Smart advice, Scott. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this with us today. And, uh, and the rest of you listening. There is a clear path and there is a, there, there definitely is a way to make this work. Have the patience. Scott, thanks again, man.  

31:43 Thanks.