00:25 Hey, welcome to today's show. Today I'm so thrilled because, you know, honestly I'm not always thrilled to talk to lawyers, but today I'm really excited to talk to Mike. Mike, will you please tell us who you are and what you do?

00:37 Sure, thanks so much Todd. So yeah, my name is Mike Kasdan. I'm an intellectual property lawyer. I work in a law firm called Wiggin and Dana. And I'm full service intellectual property. I work on patents and trademarks of technology and brand. I work with large companies, but also really like working with emerging companies. And I really like working with emerging technologies.

00:59 I love it. It's such a big deal. I mean, how many people do you see out there with awesome IP or awesome things that they do and it's really unique and they don't protect it? It's gotta make you cry a little bit.

01:11 Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. I think, you know, I've always been kind of entrepreneurial myself. And so it's exciting to learn about, you know, people's businesses and people's stories. And a lot of times, you know, intellectual property is at the heart of that. And you have to be smart and strategic about it. So that's an area that I really like, you know, helping people work through.

01:27 I love it. You know, a lot of people listening to the show are kind of in that boat, I'm guessing, where they've launched a business, they kind of dial their business into where they know they're gonna hone in on, and sometimes launch, everyone's scattered and they're kind of all over the place. But at this point, our listener is on this journey of focus and honing in on their real IP that's working. How do they start thinking about what can I protect versus what should I protect versus, you know what I mean, like tell us how you help people because this is a big deal for our audience.

02:04 Yeah, sure. I mean, it's a big area to think through. And a lot of times you're at that startup phase and you're really your resource constrained in terms of how much time you have and how much money you have. And, you know, probably the last thing that people want to do is sit down with a lawyer and pay a lawyer to do this. But I think it's also a really important time to be smart and strategic and efficient about doing that and to do it well. But, you know, the different buckets that you can think about at that outset are. You know, do I have some technology that's worth protecting with a patent? Do I, am I building a brand that's worth protecting with a trademark that I want to build around and, and associate with, you know, quality or luxury? Um, you know, do I have content of all sorts, you know, whether it's music or art, you know, or things that you're writing, um, or videos, right. Um, monetizing that content, protecting that content, which falls into the area of copyright, uh, sometimes you just have stuff that you need to keep secret and under lock and key like trademark.So you think through those four main buckets, think through what to protect offensively for yourself, but also be smart about not getting yourself into trouble by stepping on someone else's stuff. So looking at both offensively and defensively. And I think just an early meeting where you're like, this is my product, this is my focus, these are my competitors, this is what I think makes me different. Having a meeting and saying, what's the right bucket to choose early on, I think is really important.

03:27 I think everything you said is really smart and all four of those buckets are things that most people don't think about. Even as something as simple as this podcast, when I relaunched this podcast, I relaunched it as What It Takes to Scale podcast and I literally had produced like six episodes and I got a cease and desist letter from somebody for the terms what it takes. And I was like, are you kidding me? Somebody trademarked what it takes and I totally had to rebrand all over again.So who should be thinking of this? Who should be proactively researching a little bit to figure out what is not trademarked and copyrighted and what are my permissions to do what I'm doing?

04:11 Yeah. So that is, yeah. So that's a story. It's not an uncommon one. And sometimes people do have trademarks that you look at and you're surprised. But the, you know, the advice that we usually give is if you're investing into creating a brand, like take this podcast, for example, right, you have artwork, you have a title, you're going to be advertising and promoting it and picking a name. So when you're picking a name for something or you're launching a new product or feature, it makes sense to do a search and you can do a search and it's always better to kind of know, I think, to be smart at a point where you can say, oh, okay, someone's got a trademark on that, there's some risk there, I'm gonna choose this different name. It becomes a little harder down the road when you've already invested money and people already know the brand, then it's a little more painful to switch, right? So doing that kind of an early stage is the advice.

04:59 I'm glad I got it early. Yeah, I'm glad I got it early like in the first 10 episodes because it was still painful because I put a lot of money into the brand and all that kind of stuff, but you know, whatever. It goes, it goes. So now.    

05:12 Yeah, it's never fun, but better early than late.

05:16 Totally, totally. So as you have like, as you are in this business of helping businesses figure this stuff out, I mean, you guys are kind of all over the place. I noticed you guys have offices all up and down the East Coast. And you're even, you know, you've grown to the capacity of now where you're, you're also helping other lawyers with some issues that they're dealing with. Tell us what else you're, who else are you helping? 

05:38 Yeah, so thanks for asking. So, yeah, Wigan and Dana is up and down the East Coast and we have an initiative that we just launched called WiganX, which is really focused on startups and working side by side with startups on some of these issues. What do you protect? How do you avoid risk? What types of agreements you do? But I have my own separate venture, which I started in early 2022, called Lawyering While Human. And the focus of Lawyering While Human, thanks, is really on. On human-centric leadership, but also on mental health and well-being, which is an issue for all of us in the world as humans. But lawyers tend to be kind of high on that list that you don't want to be on in terms of the industries that have the most depression and anxiety and substance abuse and burnout. There are a lot of hallmarks that come with stress. And so I've been working in that field through Lawyering While Human for a little over a year and a half now working with law firms, speaking to law students, and really focusing on culture change, organizational change, and also some individual stuff that I think is helpful.

06:48 I think it's so cool because, you know, reputation-wise, lawyers definitely have a reputation of working probably a little harder than they should a lot of the time, and it's almost expected of you to be 80 plus hours a week which isn't the healthiest lifestyle. Yeah, yeah, they carry like a badge of honor until they pass out.

07:11 Yeah. Many carry it like a badge of honor. Yeah. People carry that around like a badge of honor.Yeah, it's not. So in the end, you know, as it turns out, you know, and I've been , done that, but it's not really a sustainable way to have a business even though it's really embedded in the culture of the legal business. So I think there's a really great business case in the end. You know, we're selling our brains, right? The ability as, as advisors to be smart and strategic and help folks when they get into problems or when they're building companies. So, so I think it behooves us to spend the time to take care of our own brains. I think it's better bottom line for everyone.

09:22 Right, right. Now I agree wholeheartedly, I do have some lawyers in the family and I'm gonna particularly share this episode with them because knowing that there are resources like you out there are super helpful to them and just having a community of like-minded industry people is such a smart move for any of you listening. Whether you're a lawyer, whether you're a SaaS company, whether you're, it doesn't even matter what you are having a community of people who are doing what you're doing is so much more helpful than you think. And I appreciate you for building a community around the health and wellbeing of lawyers, because let's face it, I mean, only people in your industry really know the struggles of pain that you're dealing with, in my opinion.

10:08 Yeah, community is really important. And, you know, in society, we know there's a stigma for talking about mental health and, you know, we're maybe getting a little better in that. But, you know, and in the legal field, like you talked about the sort of the badge of courage of building a lot of hours and being adversarial, you know, but in the end, you know, you need that community. And I think it's been a real pleasure to be able to be involved. And I think when we're being authentic and really connecting, it's something that, you know, almost everyone relates to. So it's been exciting work.

10:41 Right on. I love it. Okay, so now that we know what your business does and we know what you're doing on the side to help your industry, talk to us about the business. I mean, tell us about your growth journey because that's what everyone loves to hear is how have you been able to take and grow up and down the coastline with your law business and then also a little bit of insights into how the last year and a half's going on the other project?

11:08 Yeah, I mean, I think for Wigan and Dana, it's been really exciting to be a part of that growth. I came to Wigan having worked at a really big law firm and then a little boutique law firm. And Wigan's kind of in the middle. I came there about nine years ago to start their intellectual property litigation and licensing practice. And when I came, I think Wigan was pretty well known as a Connecticut based law firm, office in New Haven, Latah Street. But over these past years, we've really grown. And to be kind of a national law firm with offices up and down the East Coast. I think the way we've done that, it's always a combination of things, right? But focusing on really high quality people, bringing in really high quality people and being strategic about the groups that we want to grow. Like we looked at intellectual property and we looked at the way that we're all just trending and we looked at our early stage group and our ability to work with startups. So we said those are two areas we really want to focus on and grow and they complement each other and thinking about where to do that. So growing our New York office, you know, putting an office down in DC. But really it starts with bringing in really great people. And I think also having a really great collaborative culture. So, you know, being smart and strategic about where to grow, and then bringing in the right people and having a culture in which they can thrive, I think that's the best way to kind of make it happen. And I think for lawyering while human.You know started as just me saying hey, we should be talking about this mental health stuff more But again, I think it comes back to community finding a community of like-minded people Connecting into the folks who are directors of well-being at law firms or working at this in bar associations Plugging into large groups that you can scale into has been a really important part of reaching more people.

12:58 And I would imagine that your insights that you're gaining from working with other firms and working with other practices is probably giving you a lot of insight as to how your industry could grow in scale even more than what you've done already. Is that right?

13:10 Yeah, no, absolutely right. I think we can only, yeah, what you learn from working with others about Hagen scale, I think is really invaluable.

13:20 Totally. Now, as you know, speaking from experience and kind of jumping in late on the whole copywriting backstory, I've always, I've got a little brother-in-law who, I call him little brother-in-law, he's taller than me, but he's an amazing example to me of someone who is, kind of, he works for an organization, a coaching consulting group, and they have intellectual property that they've based their entire training curriculum on. And over the years, as I used to tease him, you know, boy, what a great business. I do is teach them accountability and blah, blah. They've now grown this company into this massive IP storage unit where they've been able to consume and consolidate with other owners of intellectual property and build a massive fortune 100 training organization with tons of really cool IP. And I'm kind of shooting myself with the foot saying, man, you guys are really smart, as opposed to teasing them as I've done all these years. And so I really appreciate this argument of protecting IP. Why are so many people unsure of how to do this? It's not that complicated of a process. Yeah, poke some holes in this. Who should be thinking about it?

14:42 Yeah, no. Yeah, it's an interesting. No, it's an interesting point. I mean, first of all, I think the interesting point is first of all, a lot of times we think about IP is this very techie nerdy, like you have to be a tech company to have IP. And to your point, your example is a great one, but not a rare one. Um, right. That's a coaching company, but their, their centerpiece is their intellectual property happens to be copyrighted content. Not like a semiconductor chip or source code but it's really crucial to what they do. So I think, you know, that's hugely valuable. I think this is getting better, but I think we need to do a better job educating entrepreneurs and C-suite folks about IP and how it intersects with business strategy. Once a year I teach, or twice a year, I teach IP for entrepreneurs down at the NYU Entrepreneurship Center.Jjust on kind of how to issue spot and kind of when to do the things, how to be smart and strategic about it. I think we need some more of that because like you said, it isn't rocket science, but it requires some thought and some intentionality.

15:50 Totally, totally. I think it's really cool what you're doing. You're the first person I met that that's your specialty and I think that it's a really fascinating thing. A lot of you listening, like a lot of you listening, you really need to be paying attention and reach out to, excuse me, reach out to Mike as you listen to this because I think that, and we'll put his contact info in the show notes, but make sure you're reaching out to someone like Mike because I can't tell you enough how important it is to protect yourself and a lot of people worry about, they get the non-competes and they get all these things set up with their employees. Protecting IP is probably way more important than a non-compete, because if you really want to protect how your business does what it does, a non-compete is almost unenforceable in a lot of states, but IP is protected. Will you explain the difference of that and help us clarify why this is so critical and almost more important than those ever elusive non-compete agreements.

16:49 Yeah, I mean, you know, there are things that you can do by agreements and sometimes people have boilerplate agreement and it's easy to say here's our employment agreement and includes this covenant not to compete and this covenant not to solicit. But I think, you know, the IP thing, it's, I think it's, there's so much else that folks are focusing on, you know, making sure you have a viable product or service and, and hiring people and getting investors and getting customers. I think that's why, and it seems kind of this specialized area and you have to pay someone for it. But to me, the value of getting just a consult at that early stage, just to say, like, you know, have an hour meeting and say, Hey, what should I be thinking about now on the IP side? And taking a minute to pause, even though all those other things have to happen. You know, being smart about it earlier, like you said, and getting it protected is going to serve you really well in the future.

17:41 And making sure not infringing on someone else's.

17:45 Yep, offensive and defensive, always.

17:48 Yeah, yeah, no, it's funny, it's funny. So as you work with these companies who are in that growth mode and in that growth phase where they really need to start thinking about protecting themselves, what are some other lessons that you've seen and been able to help people through as they're growing that have really been a huge benefit to them later on down the road?

18:10 So a couple quick takeaways or piece of advice one have simple agreements. There's so many instances. Well, I'll come to an early stage company Our company was formed among friends And they're creating a bunch of IP and doing a bunch of stuff for the company and then six months later There's creative differences and it breaks up and coming in at that point and I say, okay Well, what's the agreement say and they say oh, there's no agreement. So having a very simple agreement at the earliest stage can be a page is really, really important. The other thing is, you know, be smart about the landscape out there that you're walking into. Do some searches, right? You're coming out with a new product or a new technology. See what else is out there that's close. See what other people have. You're looking to give a snazzy name for your company. Like do a search, make sure it's clear. So I think those couple things like simple agreements andb being smart about the landscape by doing searches early is a couple pieces of advice.

19:11 Because really, until you really know what your IP is and until you really know what that core product is gonna evolve into, it's really hard to do a complex agreement at the onset of a business.

19:23 Absolutely. Yeah, it's gotta be pretty basic. Um, and look like the, the IP and what your company turns into and evolves into, um, there can be twists and turns in that, right? And sometimes your initial focus is not what you end up pivoting to. Um, but I think, you know, making sure that you have the basics in place and that when you do, um, come to those moments where you're like, Hey, I think this, this is the feature that makes us great. Or this is our differentiator. Um, then saying, okay, let's think about how we can protect that. Whether it's a trademark or a patent or trade secret, figuring out those differentiators and then saying, okay, how do we build around that from an IP perspective? That's the conversation we wanna have.

20:06 I love it, I love it. Big mistakes, things that you see, people that you're wondering, how in the world did you make it this far without doing that? What are some of those types of things we should be looking out for?

20:18 Um, so I think from an IP perspective, um, big mistakes can be, um, disclosing your invention before getting your, your patent on file, your provisional patent on file, so, you know, writing an article or showing someone your products without an NDA, uh, those can, those can, uh, destroy the ability to get a patent. Um, so, you know, that, that's, that, that's a big one that you see, right? Someone, cause sometimes it comes in an informal context, like, um, you know, I have a design competition at school and I just showed it there. Those types of things. So being thoughtful and talking to a lawyer before that to get something on file, I think that that's a good one.

20:58 Cool, great advice, great advice. Now, honestly, I've said this twice already in the show, but if you're listening and you're wondering, should I be thinking about this, you probably should be. If you're listening to this thinking I'm already protected, maybe you should rethink it. Because I think that truthfully, no one loves to dump a bunch of money into a lawyer, but trust me, you want to be proactive with the legal team to get these things protected before it's too late. Because that's when lawyers get really expensive is when you're trying to protect something that wasn't set up right from the start. Am I right?

21:22 Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And I think, you know, lawyers that work with startups like myself, you have to be efficient. Um, and you have been, sometimes you're like better to pay for an hour of time early than, you know, a lot more than that down the line.

21:45 No doubt, no doubt about it. Well, I appreciate you taking time to do this with us. I asked this of everyone that's on the show, but is there someone in your immediate circle that you have looked to and leaned on for some mentoring as you've been going through this build out of these businesses?

22:06 Um, yeah, I would love, um, to give a shout out, um, to, uh, to Jessica Cherry. Um, I met her through the Institute for wellbeing in law. She's part of that, uh, community of people focused on, on health and well-being. Um, and she's, uh, she's out there. She does a lot of writing and she has her own podcast now focusing on the workplace and, um, just finding that community and finding other voices like that has been tremendous.23:01 Wh

22:33 I love it, I love it. Well, Mike, I appreciate you taking the time and honestly, valuable, valuable info today. I really, I honestly love it because this is something that's been fresh on my mind. I just recently copyrighted some IP and it's huge. I mean, I can't believe that I was going as long as I had without doing that. And it's a big deal, it's a big deal. So start thinking about it. Mike, what's the best place to then reach out to you and your firm?

23:01 Um, yeah, so I'm easy to find on LinkedIn. Uh, the firm website is a www.Wiggin.com. Um, if you want to find me and talk about the Lawyering While Human, that's a www lawyering while human.com. Um, and yeah, you can find me, find me easily, easily on LinkedIn or other social media places.

23:20 Right on, right on. Thanks again for being here and for those listening, we'll catch you on the next episode and protect yourself between now and then. We'll catch you then. Thanks, Mike.