01:18 Hey, welcome back to the show. And I am so stoked today to have with us, Ken Garanovic. And Ken, we got to know who you are. And what do you do? 

01:27 Well, Todd, thanks. So first of all, for having me on the show, I'm excited to be here. Um, what do I do? I'd say I'm one of those guys, like make many people, like many entrepreneurs, like they have an idea,  but we actually go do something. Cause you know, it's a lot of times it's easy in life. It's scary to go take that right into the unknown. And so. You know, I've been doing, taking that leap into the unknown since I was in my twenties and have been blessed to have some success with it. So again, happy to be on the show. 01:55 Love it. So you've had, you've had the experience of living in a, in a career path and then deciding to jump out on your own. And for the last 20 years plus or so, you've been, you've been diving into it on your own, building the dream, making things happen. What are you currently working on now? Like what, what is the thing that gets you excited every morning?

02:14 Well, thing that gets me ever excited right now is AI. And if you want, we could dig right into that. Or I could first maybe tell some of the fun stories that led me up to it. 

02:25 Yeah, then tell us how you got here. Yeah, what's the scoop? Well, I'll start out I was one of those guys that was a technology guy So like I was the nerdy 13 year old like teaching myself how to code, you know, you know fun story I'm not super determined You know I always say sometimes you know I always ask somebody about their childhood because a lot of times if you had a really rough childhood Which I had a very very very rough childhood It's actually a secret sauce because you get so motivated. Your central nervous system gets so fired up, like, wow, didn't like that. Let me work really hard to never be in that situation again. And, and that was the case for me.  So like, I remember as a kid, you know, Teaching myself how to type and I went and showed somebody, you know, how fast I was typing. I was sitting there  And like, Ken, why are you typing with one hand? And i'm like, well, that's what the book told me They go. Let me see that book and it was like how to type in one hand  so  Yeah, so lots of fun things but but What I guess what started is I was a technical person, but that loved to listen to problems.And what I loved about technology and coding in particular is especially at the beginning is I could listen to a problem. I can imagine the solution of my mind and I used to code like crazy sometimes like 24-48 hours and like three days later I fixed the problem and and that was super helpful. So in my twenties I proceeded very smartly To make a lot of other people, a lot of money. So maybe that part wasn't 

03:56 That is so kind of you.

03:57 Right? And it's difficult because a lot of times when you're an entrepreneur, but you don't, you weren't, you weren't taught some of those business things, you know, you, you get people that like, wow, that kid's smart. I'll take him, you know? And I, you know, so I had total experiences where I was like, wait, they just made 10 million. And I made a hundred thousand dollars, but it was my ads, my ideas. It was like, Oh, what's going on? So, so I always remember I was living in New York and finally I met this gentleman, um, really sweet guy named Bud Goldman. And, uh, he came to me and he said, Ken, you're getting screwed. Like, what do you mean? Yeah. I was like, do you have contracts? Do you have this? Do you have that? Do you have these other things? And, and I was very naive, 20 something year old. I didn't have any of those things. And he's like, right, come with me. I'm going to give you 50%. You're smart. I'll do whatever idea you have. Let's go and so I went with him and my first product was a Prepaid debit card switch back before Wow was a thing and literally in my early 20s I'm like flying to other countries setting up satellite links and just all kinds of crazy things Wow I'll fast forward to where it gets a little bit exciting so we could talk forever on this stuff. 

05:05 Hey pause there though Positive that kind of thing does not happen to most people just for listeners. Don't expect someone to say dude I'm going in 50 50. I'll fund that you do your thing. That doesn't happen all the time. So keep going 

05:20 You know how to say is that is true? And what's funny is where the guys that do that have been in your shoes. They're like that particular gentleman Had been an entrepreneur. And actually, if you remember, if you immersed a really long time ago, you used to, there used to be like this button, you would say like, eat shit, go to hell, you know, whatever. He invented that and he sold his business for a lot of money. And so, you know, a lot of people do that. And I also think a lot of entrepreneurs, like you've seen it and I've seen it in angel investing, this is such a pattern. I'll tell you, here's the best place to get your investor. Anybody who just sold their business, because what they're really excited to do is make the kind of money they made last time. But not do all the work and they're willing to split the profit. So that was kind of his scenario He's like I just exited. I need a smart young man who's hungry Um, i'll fund him and i'll split it 50:50 because I don't have to do all the work So I always tell people those are great people to go to for investors and you know And I funded people under that same scenario. So so very good point. Very good point. Um, Fast forward a little bit and again i'm gonna date myself, but I was in my 20s Um, there is this crazy thing called the AOL, right? And I was looking at it and back then everybody started getting dial up accounts. If you remember ISP, 20 bucks and earth link and all that stuff. And I was looking at it, your CD and  all that stuff. And I was looking at it and I was like, wow,  this is going to be huge, but I don't want to do the ISP business. Everybody's doing that. Sure. Where are, where are they going? They're going to websites. And I became just convinced that every business was going to run their business on the internet Which was actually in like a 95 was a controversial thought because maybe this 

07:00 It was very controversial I remember I was in college thinking and I had an old woman in idaho at a computer lab saying You've never Yahoo'd before? And I was like, uh, nope, I have no idea what this thing is. 

07:13 Yeah, totally. So it's like, it's going to be a fad. So I thought this is great because the economics back then, you could buy a physical server for, say, like three or 4, 000. And I could rent it. For like 5,000 each month. And so I was down in Florida at this time and Florida only had a 45, they think about like your internet in house. Like I've got a gig. You've probably got a couple hundred megs at least, right. Is all of South Florida. Every single human being shared a 45 Meg connection. Crazy. Right. So, um, I took all of my savings. So this is the bold one. So this is the big bet, you know, be careful. I saved up 150,000. And I moved to Atlanta because it had the deepest amount of fiber, which is the, the, for those of us, not understanding what that is fibers where you're in, it goes at really high density, very, very fast speed. Cause all over like, and so I moved to Atlanta cause it had the highest density of fiber and the lowest cost to operate and rented literally with my savings, half of a floor downtown Atlanta started a little company called inner land.And we went, you know, again, right time. You always say, you always tell people, how do you make a lot of money?  Right. Time skill. And then I'm a bit, you know, I'm, I'm spiritual. Some people call it luck, whatever you want to call it, but those three things come together. You can make a really big business. And so we went from like 0 to 200 million, did an IPO, Microsoft investors. And, you know, so just an incredible, incredible experience when people, when I remember when people first started working for me, I'd say, congratulations, you've got your job. There's the box with your desk in it. Here's a screwdriver. You know, go forth and prosper. Um, but it was great. We had a bunch of 20 year olds that believe we were unstoppable.

Um, and we were, you know, we did deals with Microsoft, HP, Verizon, really big companies, and afterwards, after we were public, I changed the company name, merged it with another company and we became web. com and it's funny, I still think one of the, one of the guys who, who was my telco guy. And I would be somebody like if I saw somebody amazing, I would try to hire them on the spot So I remember that we had to outsource telco support and this this this guy came in to repair it and i'm like You're really good. Would you come work for us? And he's like, but I work for these guys I said, I know I you know, I don't want to harm anybody, you know, I don't want to get you in trouble but if you're gonna come work, but it's funny not too long ago, and this is 20 something years later, he still works for that. It's just funny. Just wild. That's funny. You got him. You got him to move. And he's stuck there  and that was a great experience because a lot of times CEOs in their twenties, you know, and all of my, all of my executive staff was literally one and a half times my age. Um, you often get pushed out by somebody. I just, just call it what it is. It's hard to scale. It's hard to be humble. It's hard to think of all the processes, you know, because it takes more than just the energy. You have to think about, and you talked about people. Process and technology and humans always think technology is the hard part. It's almost never the hard part. It's people and process. 

10:25 Let's talk about that for a second, because I truly feel like given your experience and the, and the projects you're working on right now. Um, you and I both know that, that people, it was funny, you know, the first iteration of this podcast, I interviewed 250 people in 13 weeks and they were all CEOs. They all had their own companies and, and I kept hearing, Hey, what was your favorite part about your growth journey? Oh, it was my people, probably 60 percent of the people would say it was my, it was my people. When it came to the problems and I would say, what, what were your biggest challenges in growing your business? About 80 percent of the time it was my people and talk to us about people because you just talked about that experience with that man and, and your hiring of him. But what's it like and share the dynamic that you see when people sometimes have the right people. But they don't have the roles to find, or they, they maybe have roles to find and don't have the right people. Like, how do you cross the chasm there? Because I think most inexperienced CEOs, in particular in your twenties and thirties, don't understand the role definition and where you see the problems in companies you've tried to help, or maybe companies you invested In that transition between solving the people problem?

11:37 Well, I always like to do it with examples. So i'm going to give you examples So later in my career, I drove transformation in a company called COX You probably heard of kelly blue book manheim's just massive, you know, 12 billion dollar business lots of people process issues You know later I worked to a you know, one of those unicorns in the west coast called new relic Where again, we had technology that helped businesses transform and make better software, but I'll share this story. I won't, I won't mention who, but it was a fortune 20, fortune 40, let's call it, um, uh, healthcare company. And I got involved in this case cause they had been doing cloud transformation. And they were on their third cloud transformation attempt, and they had, uh, wasted 50 million on the two previous attempts.

12:26 Wow. 

12:27 And so I got in, of course, there's tons of consultants and, you know, and I'm a transformation guy, you know, I'm like, where are we at? How do we get there? Right. And I, you know, the things you say, I literally tell people, it's always people, process and technology. Right. Like, I also like, whenever engineers come to me with like tech debt, I said, there is no tech debt. What do you mean? There's problems with our software. No, no, there's business problems, right? So the business problem is your software is hard to change or whatever and it really changes the way people think about it But going back to this particular company, I went to the the leadership team and I said, okay great I said what's the outcome we're trying to achieve? Yeah, and they said great We want to move the outcome we want to achieve is we want everybody on Azure.  I said, okay, so that's success  And they said, yes, I said, oh, okay. And I said, uh, and who's driving this transformation to go to Azure and they go, oh, well, our ops team. I said, oh, okay. Your ops team. All right So let me ask you a question. Let's go back to your previous things that didn't quite work. Were they also the same goal? And was it the same team driving it  and they're like, well, yeah, because they know the most about hardware and we're going to the cloud. And so, you know,  are you asking us that stupid question? And I said, okay, great. So if I said tomorrow, everybody's on Azure, you'd be happy? They go, well, no, we wouldn't. We want to make sure that our software teams can deliver software better. It needs to be more resilient. It needs to do this. It needs to do that. And I used to do that. I said, great. So in your plan, where is that the outcome? Well, that's not an outcome. I said, okay, so let's just think about what you just said to me is your outcome is really just task complete. It's not actually a business outcome for it. Right. And every time your outcome, your desired place you're going is not a business outcome. It's just a step right to action. I was called outcomes over activities. My favorite phrase. And, and so they started watching. Okay, great. So let's make those business outcomes, the objective. Of this, and I'm going to show you when you present that to the rest of the team, how that in that moment will change the way people think about things and scores. We released it and they're like, well, we can't make it do that because we haven't done this pipeline and we haven't done that because we haven't talked to that team and we can't. But, but we were already halfway into this thing that was supposed to work. Right. So it was, it became very clear. They didn't have, they didn't have outcomes. They had task complete as success, which is a common, common enterprise problem, right? Outcome. And then the other part I said, I asked this question, I said, okay. And so if you're successful, now that we've got these outcomes. Which teams are going to be most impacted by this change? Well, it's going to be our operations team. I said, okay, so the team that has the chance to lose the most people that needs to change their skill set is the most impacted, the most cheese move. They're driving this. So when that happens, knowing humans. What are they going to do?  And like I saw that living in the CEO's eyes, lies came over cause he's done other things because it, cause they think, especially business leaders that aren't experienced with technology in particular, they keep thinking it's a technology problem, right?  It's a people process problem. I am so glad you're here. 

15:47 www.captains.council.com

17:26  It's an adaptation problem. You know, it's like, you know, what I see most frequently, Ken, I appreciate you sharing that story because it's so relevant with growth and scaling is that technology is only going to be as good as your strategy to implement it, right? And so, so being on the right platform, moving to Azure is one thing, but what is it about Azure that you want it to do for you that your other system wasn't or your other methodology wasn't? And so I, I see this all the time. I, I, um,  yeah, I mean, I don't even know  where to begin with that story, but every company I've ever come in to help with operations and help them kind of see their, their growth challenges, it's almost always. They've never really mapped out  where they want to get to and, and what is the path to get there? They're just so focused on the tech or they're so focused on having the right people that they, that they, they bypass the strategy. What's going to get us there? Why do we want to be there? You know what I mean? 

18:26 Yeah, no, and I totally agree. I think it goes to two things is again. It's that I call it outcomes over activity I love that is never make an activity the objective, right? You have to make the business outcome and when you do that, it's amazing things like all the share I was at a company called New Relic. I was doing a turnaround I was changing it to what's called a general manager model because you're not times when you build software. You've got product Yeah, you've got engineering You've got the business and they all have different views of what should be done. And so if you don't do it right, you got a bunch of noise. Um, and then like times, you know, if somebody says I need feature X or I need functionality, why? And then everybody goes into that. So in this case, we were going to build an API to allow people to pull in different types of data. And I don't want to go too detailed, given the audience, but different types of data and the gentleman who was the general manager I have approved for this group came to me and said, okay, we've got our plan. We're going to do this thing that's going to allow people have more data. So what's your success criteria or what's your business outcome? And they go, we released this, this functionality. I said, okay, uh, I don't like that.  Cause that's a task complete and I want a business outcome. And so then they thought about it and they, I said, take some time, go back. And so they came back to me and they said, okay, our goal is going to be, I forgot what it is, let's just call it a million transactions with the first 90 days on the, on the API. And I said, great, I like that as success. Cause that presumes you've already built it. And you've built something that people actually want to use and they're demonstrating that usage by a million or whatever. And it was funny. I remember when he said that he goes, but. But, but if, if we agree to that, then we've got to add this other thing and we got to add this other thing and we got to put that functionality because we'll never get there. Right. And I said, isn't that amazing?  And it's true. It's just, it's the same thing every single time. 

20:17 Ilove it! What, what an awesome example. What, what an awesome, uh, uh, lesson here for those listening. And, and I hope if you are listening to this, you're seeing the lesson in that  sometimes finishing a task is, is not going to get you the outcome you were hoping, uh, there's ancillary tasks that need to happen. There's, and, and I would say, Ken, that's one of the hardest things in management is trying to get your team to view. The outcome as opposed to we got to get on Azure.  Why?

20:48 Yes the task. Yeah, you know, it's this thing. Yeah, check the box. 

20:50 Yep. Yep. Yep And and I I see that a lot. There's a there's a crm tool that uh is is Becoming enormously popular right now called go high level and and i've i've happened to work with these guys from the very beginning of their growth journey and As I see people adopt their crm platform It's like, Hey, we got to get on go high level and they go and get on it, but they have no idea why they even needed to be on there. And they, and they just are like, it's almost like a status thing. They want it to be on there.  Well, what are you using it for? And what is the outcome you've, these are questions that everyone needs to be asking themselves when they, when they approach a new tool or a new technology that they think they need for their business growth.

Why?  What is it going to do for you that it's not doing for you right now that you can't get done somewhere else? Maybe it is the right move, but maybe it's not. And what is the outcome? I love this talk. This is a great conversation.  

21:44 No, it's fun. And when I was at a company called New Relic, so we provided tools that allowed you to monitor your software. And so people thought about it as monitoring, but no, it's totally different than monitoring. Because what you're actually giving your developers for once is a view into the customer experience. And I would fly across the globe, do keynotes, meet with CEOs. And when I explain, what this does is right now there's all of these steps between your customer's experience, it might go to business, it might go to sales, it might go to product, until it actually hits your developers, who are the ones who really need to deliver a great customer experience changing that mindset. That's why, like if you go to Disney, your app doesn't break anymore because behind the scenes, you know, or if you use Hulu, it mostly works right behind the scenes like those were all customers. That we put that technology inside your apps, inside your website. So the system knows that you have a bad experience before you're out telling your friends or are experiencing it.

22:37  I love it. So, so as you've evolved as a business leader and as you've evolved as a, as through your experiences and growing and scaling businesses,  what do you, what kind of lessons do you think, you know, that are relevant to our audience who are primarily.  Two to two to 50 million, two to 20 million, kind of in that, that range where they're like evolving out of, I'm a launching business into, I I'm ready to grow and scale. What are some things that you think they need to know in order to kind of solve the problems you've talked about today?  

23:09 Well, I'd say two things. I think one is, you know, be purposeful of, of moving out of operator, which I think we all do when we're starting a business. We all have to be an operator, right? Because nobody has all the details. Nobody cares as much as us. But if you're not careful, you are a 50 million operator. And, you know, I've seen too many people, you know, if you don't learn how to migrate to owner, right, which is a different way of running your business. Yeah. You know, you soft tax the checks and balances. You know, that's where I see divorces. I see, I miss my kid's life. And so, you know, my, my number one thing I always say is ask yourself, where are you an operator and owner? And then think about the steps that you could put in to be an owner. And if anybody, like I've got a book on it, if anybody, I don't need any money from it, you know, glad to share thoughts around that.The other part I like is just a philosophy, which is a little different even than I used to think is get really clear in business, you know, and in life. Where you want to go. Like, what does that look like? Imagine that you're walking on it. You can feel like you're taking steps. You wake up every day, you know, you're an entrepreneur. If you would thought of the same things, but like get really crisp. And this is the part where it gets different. Our brains are hardwired to go from that to how don't do it.  The next question is ask yourself why,  and that's where like sometimes the achievers, you know, you make 20 million, I got to make 50 million.And then again, suddenly you're divorced and you ruined your kids. And so, so where do you want to go? Why do you want to go there? It's the next question. Okay. And then the next one I say is again, still not how  is it a must or should.  What I've found is if you can get really crisp in business or even in personal life. Where you want to go really crisp and clear with yourself on why you want to get there and it's a must Then it's amazing. The brain is hardwired. It will figure out the best house, right? If you go to the house first, you'll pivot on a ton of house and you may do in both scenarios But you'll do it much smarter if you're locked and loaded on the where why and must.

25:18 I agree with that. I agree with that and and what a fascinating story if you if you missed that rewind a second yeah, go back about two minutes and listen to that again because  That's a lot of unpacking to do right there. And that's a lot of things that a lot of people will likely not do in the right order and I think that the order you just described that in is fantastic Um, what what do you see as? Excuse me You were talking to me before we started recording about a better new startup that you're involved with using utilizing AI and And a lot of people hear. Oh, it's another ai business another ai things One of the things that's fascinating to me about the brief description you gave to me, and I'm going to have you give that here in a second, but is how you are using AI not to replace humans, but to enhance humans and, and in different roles and capacities that they're operating in. And I think, I think a lot of people fear AI because of its threat to replace us, but how do you visualize that? And, and, and to me, it feels like the reason you're doing that whole business offering is.  is to enhance human interaction and their ability to be efficient and operate better.  Describe it real quick, just so we kind of know what you've got going up your sleeve right now. 

26:31 Absolutely. So I've been doing AI for seven years. And so like when the first AI did going back to that company, new relics, we built technology. You think about like, let's just take the, the, uh, uh, Disney app. So the Disney app, everybody's using it behind the scenes. There's lots of data. Somebody's getting errors, right? We built AI. To determine that they're getting a growing amount of errors in this way so that we could proactively fix applications before the customer actually experienced. Wow. So that was kind of my first run in AI. I did another company called blameless. We built AI and this is. Also where software breaks, it uses AI to help people quickly understand what happens. So like you think about when, um,Taylor Swift broke Ticketmaster, they were using our software to fix that. And so we could use AI so that when someone was trying to figure out it could bring all these other unrelated things and tell that person so they can fix things faster. So again, two great examples of Delivering better experience to AI Cool. And then I said, you know, so many, I feel like AI is going to be as big, I'm actually bigger than the internet and how it impacts businesses. And there's going to be some good, bad, just like you think about the internet. There's some good things about it. There's certainly some bad things, but I said, I don't want to help. Like everybody's doing online. I said, what if I could build, I'll call it an offline AA business. What if I could build something that helps the people that usually don't get help to automate their world, to automate those customer experiences. And so we built a company called product genius guru pretty excited about it. And what's cool is it's the concept of a digital employee, literally give it a name. And you can train it so you literally can just like add your training manuals to it add your website It takes all of that and it's instantly smart It's it's crazy when you see how it can just answer a question about anything 100 accurately So it can answer questions, but then we said all right, Well, what do we need to do? We need to make it communicate in the real world. So like you can start talking to this AI by scanning a QR code, or you could literally talk to it on a Motorola radio or, or have it interact in social media and email. So I could do a lot of off offline things and what that's really enabled is really kinds of really neat use cases.

And I was sharing some of them, um, like a bowling alley, um, a bowling alley in there. And today like let's say the pens get stuck, you know, and you go and you're like, oh man, the pens are stuck You know, maybe you know There's something you're supposed to do or you go walk to the front desk and you tell them the pens are stuck Right, like what lane are you on? I'm on lane two and like, okay I'm gonna send somebody there and then you're sitting there Waiting not knowing how long this person's gonna show up and then hopefully eventually gets fixed right now. Meanwhile to the business Lane two could be having problems multiple times during the week. They don't know that until somebody realized, gosh, I think I've been to lane two a lot of times. So with product genius, there's a QR code and you could scan it and it says like, Hey, how can I help? And you could ask any question. I'm interested in a private event. You could say, uh, you could order food. It's connected to the POA. I want food. You could say, um, you could say that lane, that my pen just got stuck. And then it will say, great. Did you push the reset button? Because maybe you didn't know about that. Oh, I didn't know about that. I did push the reset button. It still doesn't work Oh, okay. What lane you on? I'm on lane two Great. I'm going to send somebody in your way, but here's where it gets cool. Is if you think about like a bowling alley, everybody has radios, right? Yeah. They're on radios. Well, then AI, let's just say I'd be called Alice. Alice comes on. Hi, it's Alice. I just talked to a customer on lane two. They did try the reset. It didn't work. And their pens are stuck. I told them somebody's on their way. Right. Can you give me an approximate time? And then one of the employees can just say. Alice, yeah, I'll probably be about 30 minutes and then Alice updates the customer. So we just created an amazing experience for the customer. We just took out going to the front desk for no reason other for them to pick out a radio. So they get a focus on higher value things. And then the person that's doing the work doesn't get bombarded with updating what's going on Alice took care of all of that. I love it. I'll give you one more example. If I could just with restaurant, I mean with hotels. Yeah, like we go into hotel and we're like, what are the great restaurants nearby? Right? And so we have to go figure that out. We're Googling it. Well, what if it automatically knew because people had already asked and already knows reviews and it just said, great. These are 5 restaurants that are very popular that are 5 miles away and you say, I want towels. Great. Do you want a large towel or small towel? I'll take two large towels. Right. Great. Would you like to be updated via text when we deliver this to your room? No. Yes. Okay. Yes. You put your phone number in. And then behind the scenes, it goes on the radio to housekeeping and says, Hey, this is Alice. I've got a customer in room 225 that needs two towels. About how long is that going to be? And then they just say, Alice, we won't get to that till probably about 3 p. m. Okay. Got it. I'll let the customer know, literally speaking to them.

31:30 Crazy. 

31:31 And then it texts the customer and says, your towel should be there about 3 p. m. Does that work for you? No, that doesn't work. Can it be earlier?  Let me check the customer to 25. They like the towels a little bit early. Can you do it in early? No, Alice, I can't do any earlier. Okay. I'll let them know. But again, you think of how many humans would have had to be involved in that conversation. Tremendous. And what's even Because it's AI. Go ahead. I was going to say, what's even cooler. It does, it does speak in 30 languages and you don't have to type. It does talk to you. So literally you can scan the QR code and it's like, hi, I'm Alice with XYZ hotel. Um, I can answer any question, take any order. How can I help you? The other part that's really cool is when you put AI in all these conversations, it's really good at understanding patterns. So now like to that bowling owner, I can say lane two, it seems to have a repeated amount of resets this week.  Right. So they know to go address that or to the hotel. I could say, um, it seems like there's repeated requests for room service on Fridays on these floors, which maybe they've got an outsourcing problem that they would have figured out six months later after they got a bunch of bad reviews, I'll leave this last part is like, say, somebody says, I love this.  It could send them to give a five star review. They say, I hate this. You get their name and number so you can solve it. So you solve that bad word amount instantly. I love it. Yeah. So we're really excited about the changes it's going to do to the businesses that you and I go into every day. 

 33:10 I love the concept of offline AI. Offline AI. Offline AI. This is cool.  

33:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

33:15 Oh, dude, Ken, this is So we're excited about that. This is a very cool launch. And it's a, I, as I mentioned earlier, I can think of several relationships of mine that need this and could definitely operationalize this into their current, uh, you know, operations. And I think that this is really, this is the exciting part. I do remember the early 90s and mid 90s where internet was just coming out and people were like, what are we going to use this for? And I think AI is kind of evolving much faster than the internet was. And like, what are we going to use this for? And these are awesome use cases. And I know there's a lot of other awesome use cases out there, but bottom of bottom line is, can your experiences and your, um, trajectory that you've been on in terms of building, growing, rising, exiting, you know, some fail, some don't. Some are amazing. Some aren't.  Thank you for sharing these insights with us today, because this really is helpful. Not only for. For us as an listening audience, but I hope it's helpful for your, your journey through your growth progress in this new company. I, I think that as people understand why you're solving the problems you do and, and who is supposed to help, it does kind of naturalize the conversation of what this business does, how you're building and growing it. And I know for a fact that people listening to this show are going to listen to this and think.  Ah, yeah, I need to ask those questions. I need to get this in the right order. I need to have the right people, processes and tech to help me grow and scale my business. So, so thank you. More than anything, and anything, any last thing that you want to leave with the, with the audience before we, we kill the show.  

34:48 Well, I'd say, since you have a lot of people that own it, it's a tough thing being the owner, right? 

34:49 Oh, yeah. 

34:50 You've got a partner. It's tough. Sometimes you feel alone. But, you know, I always go back to is what did this data tell you? You know, if you go back to is, because it's easy, you got to be careful if it's all your emotions. But, yeah, look at the data, build data driven systems. That's also how you become an owner versus an operator. Love it. Really embrace a data driven, like I'm a big fan of objective key results. Like what's the objective, how will we know we achieved it? But I just encourage anybody that's doing that. Make sure that you have a data driven driven business, that you have each of your team members talk about data as success, not like, Hey, I did really good. You know, what does that really mean? 

35:31 Emotions don't mean anything. 

35:32 Yeah. And then you can get to that, that Holy grail, which you operate like an owner. Your teams know what they need to do. They're doing a great job. You're taking care of them. And then you get some semblance of balance. 

35:44 Ken, I love it. I really do. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And for those listening, I highly, you know, if you're in a services business, uh, needing offline AI. Definitely go check out Product genius. And I hope that you, uh, as you, as this evolves, I would love to get a check in at some point. I want to know what's happening with the business, but Ken, thanks again.And we appreciate you being here. That was great. 

36:04 Thanks so much for having me, Todd. Be well.