00:25 Hey, welcome back to the podcast. And today we are so blessed to have with us, James Grant. James, will you please tell us who you are and what you do?

00:34 Yeah, Todd, thanks for having me first off, but yeah, my name is James Grant and I'm a personal injury lawyer that helps other personal injury lawyers make more money faster and with less stress by serving as their outsource litigation department. 

00:49 Awesome!

00:50 And really, you know, our mission, it's simple. We litigate so you don't have to. And thereby in the process, we help each other build wildly profitable law firms together.

00:59 I love it, I love it. All right, so, you are a litigation attorney, but you've developed awesome systems and processes. Is that kind of what we're talking about here? You're smarter than the most average attorney.

01:10 Oh! I wouldn't go so as far as saying that. I mean, I may have gone to Georgia Tech and been a civil engineer, but then I went to law school for some reason. And it's not necessarily about smarts, but really about persistence. And that, I've got that in spades.

01:25 Well, persistence drives to systems and processes. And when you got a persistent person who builds awesome systems and processes, it does make a difference in a lot of people's business. So what you're doing though is awesome. So you are an outsourced service provider for other litigation attorneys. Is there a specific type of litigation? What are you guys going after?

01:46 Yeah, so generally there's two models for personal injury law firms. Most personal injury law firms, they try to do everything and they try to handle a case from beginning to end and that can work. There are some big firms that do that really well. But when you're a solo, when you've got two or three attorneys, you're kind of in this battle of there's pre-litigation of the phase at the initial onset of a case. You just got into a car accident, you need to go to the doctor. We gotta get the insurance claims up, get you in a new car, get you to the doctor, get you through all that treatment and the initial negotiations. You know, that's the pre-litigation phase and the vast majority of cases settle in that phase, but not every case does. And to go to that next phase requires a different skillset. So if you're a smaller firm, you're kind of juggling two different teams. You're playing baseball over here, but then you're taking your team and you're playing football in the next case. So it's one of the things where we are good at that. Invest your time, money, and scale in that, and then let us help you on the other side so we can grow together.

02:52 Love it, love it. And do you do both sides of the fields? Are you playing both soccer and baseball or football? Okay.

02:57 No! So that's our unique value proposition because there are other law firms around that do what we do. However, we've realized that I'm in the business of helping people. My firm wants to help others. We're gonna help their clients and we're gonna help the law firms grow as a community. Well, in order to do that, I have to compliment them. I can't compete with them. So like I was saying, our unique value proposition is, hey, we're just gonna be the compliment. We're not gonna compete. We're not going to, our commitment is we're not going to do any digital ads, any Facebook, any TV billboards, buses, radio, none of that stuff because I can't also be driving up your cost of acquisition, but then saying, Hey, I'm going to help you out over here as well. It's the, those two don't jive. So that's where, you know, we're going to stand up and say, Hey, we're just going to sit in the litigation spot and you're going to stay over here and we're going to grow together. And that's going to be great for everybody and the clients included.

03:50 I love it, I love it. Now that's so fascinating because, you know, for those of you listening, you know, as you're trying to figure out your growth strategy, a lot of people launch a business doing one thing and then they find out, to your point, James, that they are really, really good at just one of those things, not the five or the six other things that they thought they needed to do when they launched. You're providing an awesome, complimentary business. And for those of you listening who are really good at one or two pieces of maybe a six-piece puzzle like you're talking about. What do they do, James? What do you suggest to them? What should they be paying attention to in this interview?

04:27 Only those things that you're good at. Outsource, offshore, figure out some way for somebody else to do those other things. Because to your point, if you're great at 20, 30% of the whole process, do that. If you're a great marketer, go market. You don't need to worry about the production side of things. If your skillset is there, go do that and find somebody else to do that. That's one of the things that we've realized in my business partner and I, Mark, in our entrepreneurial journey is. You have to acquire the skills of an entrepreneur and you're not great at everything. You can't do everything.

05:01 Yeah. Right, right, right.

05: 02 and you're not great at everything. You can't do everything. 

05:04 No, most people that do everything aren't really good at anything.

05:09 Yeah, I mean, if you dabble in everything, you're an expert in nothing.

05:14 Right, right, right. So listen, so James, as you've been doing this with your business, I mean this is a fascinating thing because a lot of people do feel that obligation almost that they need to be doing it all in house. I can remember the first time I outsourced, I finished the first project and I was like, holy crap, I thought I was gonna need to hire a whole team to do that one thing and I ended up just needing this company that does all these other things along with it. How does that first engagement look? Because most lawyers feel like, this is something I gotta keep personal, I gotta keep it all in house because it's confidential. What does that conversation look like between you and attorney when you're doing those first initial meetings?

06:56 Man, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, us lawyers, we are terrible at thinking that we're the best at everything and that we have to do it all. And I mean, you can't, like we just talked about, like it's literally not possible. You cannot be the best marketer, the best salesman, the best production, you know, the best janitor, the best bookkeeper, like you can't do it all. And it was very, very difficult for me to accept because again, that's the model that I followed. But once you realize that you, gain so much more by letting other people do things because those people want to do those things and they're really good at it. So let them enjoy it. So that way you have more time to do the things that are actually going to grow and scale your business as opposed to getting stuck of, well, I have to fill out this budget because this department needs it and I'm the only one that can do it. Like when you start doing that, you know you're not gonna scale your business as more a hobby because it revolves around you.

06:55 Totally. And I gotta think that in your industry specifically, I like the role that you're taking here. In a lot of other industries, I see a lot of people doing the opposite of what you're doing. They prefer to be on the lead gen side, building leads, and then handing or selling them off to the other people doing the fulfillment. What you're doing is incredible to me because you're actually letting all these other litigation attorneys. jump in, grab, capture the clients, and then you're just there on the backside. If it goes to trial, we're your guys. Is that kind of how it works for you?

07:32 Yeah, I mean, I'm going to venture to say, you know, probably 60, 65% of the cases that come through most law firms are going to settle in that pre litigation face. So we're only dealing with a small portion of those cases that need it. And it's just, it's easy when for us, we take the case where it is, we plug it into our system and then it just runs and then they're going to get money at the end, the referring firm. So then they get to go focus on what they're good at. And then they get to go dump more money into their marketing machine, which is only going to have them grow faster, as opposed to being stuck doing litigation, which can be time consuming if you don't have the right processes, procedures, everything in place to allow that to scale with you.

09:39 I love it. You know, we oftentimes hear that the riches are in the niches, and I think that what you've done is really honed in and targeted in on something that you guys are really, really good at. And tell us about your business now, because we talked about who you serve, what you do to help them. Help us understand here the dynamics. You know, you've been operating as a lawyer for a number of years now. Making this transition and doing what you're doing now by just focusing on your specialty, how has that affected your growth as a business, as a person? What has it done to your, your mental game? I mean, now you don't got to worry about all the other stuff. How has this affected your business?

10:19  I mean, it's literally changed everything because when we first started the business in January of 2015, we did everything. And we did everything across multiple practice areas. And slowly we realized, well, you've got a niche down. We've got to pick one practice area. Well, still within one practice area, there's a number of other ways that it can go. So you have to find that niche and find that specialty so that then you can just narrow your focus. And then that allows you to have a mission, to then have core values, to have a team, to have a passion where you're building from the ground up as opposed to being scattershot all over the place. So it's just the more you narrow, at least in my opinion, the more that you can grow because you know exactly where you're going. If you're doing a little bit of everything, whether it's law, whether it's media, whether it's any number of things. You don't know where your focus is, but the more laser focused you are, the easier it is to plan, the easier it is to forecast. There's so many benefits that you gain by having that narrow focus.

11:28 And the better you become at what you do, right? I mean, very few people are born a natural litigator. You can actually now focus your skills on, okay, we're noticing this trend, because this is now all I'm thinking about is this litigation piece. I'm seeing these particular trends and this is how we can win more cases and this is what we're seeing in more and more cases. I mean, it's gotta add so much value to your ability to win these cases than it ever was before when you were worrying about all the other settlements and all the other garbage going on.

11:58 Well, to your point, data is so huge. We are able to compile so much and we have so many years of data and especially with all the stuff that's happening with AI and Microsoft incorporating it into their platforms and offerings. It is just phenomenal the amount of analytics and different reports and things that we're gonna be able to pull just within the next year or so where we're gonna be able to say, well, this case ended up with this adjuster and this attorney and this judge with this like, you're going to have a roadmap of where the case goes really before you even start because there's just so much out there.

12:35  Love it. I love it. Now, most lawyers and most litigation attorneys tend to be pimped out in really fancy suits, really, you know, pinstripes and all the other stuff. You got a lightning bolt and you're in a gym in an unfinished basement. Tell us about your business, like, what are you going for? Because that is not the typical lawyer look. What are you doing with that brand?

12:58 You have to be real and you have to be true to yourself. The second you start changing for other people or for possible clients or possible customers, well, I can't say everyone, but a large majority of people are gonna pick up on it. They're gonna see that it's just, it's fake, it's not genuine. And when it comes to at least my business, my business is mainly B2B, business to business. And I'm dealing in interactions with people and people only do business with those that they know, like, and trust. So, you know, this is not just like, I throw some money at SEO or PPC and I get a click and it comes in. I'm having to build relationships. So I don't want to, you know, put on the fancy suit and, you know, be all Mr. GQ because that's not necessarily me. Can I do that and go and show up in the courtroom? Absolutely. But that's more of a performance. That's not necessarily who I am day to day. And yeah, this is me. I like superheroes. I compete in amateur strongman. So I work out in my gym. I have a gym that's also in my office, which is here and further back. And I don't want it to be this fancy posh mahogany walled line place because number one, it's where I work out. Like you don't work out in a fancy place. You work out in a dungeon. You work out in a gym and it's like, it's where things work, but that's me. And at the end of the day, we can do business together and we can do great things for each other, but if you don't like me, then that's okay. You can go do business with somebody else. But the second you turn that off and start changing for others, that's where I think things go off the rails.

14:35  Well, now, and you mentioned a couple of the things in there that I think are really, really valuable, and I hope that those listening picked up on this, because as you were talking about the transition from being an everything attorney into niching down into even what you're doing right now, these stages that you took into niching down, also you mentioned led you into establishing core values, establishing clear mission statements establishing really, I'm guessing you went into an exercise where you were defining roles and responsibilities in your organization. How did that take place? And did it take a long time for you to get to that point? Or is that something you did pretty early on in the business?

15:18  Oh man, I wish we'd done it early on because it would have made things so much easier. But no, I mean, we've only really started that within this last year of realizing that you have to have core values. And these aren't just core values that like the owners know and no one else knows. You have to establish, these are our company's core values that dictate everything, roll it out to the entire team and make sure that the team buys in as well. Because once you decide, all right, these are our core values. For us, we've got innovation, diversity, and integrity. And if, pretty much the question is, does it go back to one of those three things? If it's yes, do it. If it's not, don't do it. And that just makes it simple because then everybody is on the same page. They don't necessarily have to say, well, should I do this or should I not do it? Well, am I integrity with myself? Am I an integrity with the company? You know, are we still innovating and going on? Do we have diversity of thought within the business? So like all those things go together and it allows you to set a foundation upon which you build the business and then scale going forward.

16:24 I love it. And how did you come to the realization that you needed that? Because a lot of people will go in business for 10 years without even thinking about it. You're lucky you picked up on it in about the six or seven year mark, but why didn't you do it earlier? And who didn't tell you? And did somebody tell you? And how did this all kind of come to be? Because I think that a lot of businesses, to be honest, our listening audience are people that are generally people that have launched, they're making money. They're not really sure what to do next. How did you know that this is something you needed to do to kind of get to that next level of growth?

17:01 I wish I could say that we knew. I really wish I could take credit, but I can't. In October of 2018, we hired a business coach. 

17:10 Awesome.

17:11 It was the single greatest thing we have done on a personal, professional, and financial basis because you can start, pretty much anybody can start a business. I think like the numbers are, there's $110 trillion in GDP across the globe last year. There's plenty of money going around for people to start businesses and to be profitable. But you have to realize that each level brings new challenges, new opportunities. The way you run a hundred thousand dollar business is not the way you run a million dollar business is not the way you run a 10 million dollar business and so on and so forth. So having mentors and people that can show you, well, you need to consider this because this is going to happen and it may work great now, but you're going to have to tear it all down and rebuild it as you get to this next level. Helping us understand what it looks like to have that entrepreneurial mindset and running a business that functions based on Objective metrics and not subjective feelings that's really where you start to get to that place where you can scale and you can grow and you can also have a plan and Direction from other people who have been there as well.

18:23 I love it. Honestly, I was hoping you were gonna say that because I think that all too often goes above and beyond what most people think they need. They tend to have this feeling like, dude, I am a founder. I have done this. I am building this thing out. And yet you mentioned that you have a date specifically ingrained in your mind of the time you picked up a business coach. And this is a big deal. A coach, a community, a network. A group of people who understand your pains as an operator of a business, it just makes such a difference to have that person who has been down the road a little further than you, to be able to say, dude, James, this is what you're gonna hit coming up in about a year, and as you hit this revenue mark, you're gonna be dealing with this, and by the way, did you know there's some tax strategy once you get to this point? There's so many things that you think about. What are some significant things that you feel like this coach or community has bailed you out of before you would have hit him. And now you see you would have hit him had you not had that person with you.

19:27 Yeah, I mean, so the coach that we use, it's a not just one person, but it's a community of coaches and it's a community of members, but it's how to manage a small law firm. And they work with other law firms. And it's incredible because you kind of flip the script because lawyers generally are known for making money, but most lawyers have terrible reputations because they don't run good businesses. The money may be coming in. They have no business skills. They have no business acumen. They don't have a business plan. And when you switch things and start looking at it from the perspective of, I need to run this business like Amazon, like Tesla, like these giant corporations, all of a sudden it's very freeing because now you have a network of people that are like-minded and it's not just the bar meetings where everyone's telling war stories and you're really focused on making achievable, sustained growth over a certain period or whatever you want because it's all about you. It's about your business fulfilling your needs, not the other way.

20:44 I love it. Now this has been such a fun conversation because I do believe what you've just described and the journey that you've been on for the past eight years of business, it really is typical of what a lot of people go through in their own launch and then growth journey of their business. Whether you're a lawyer, a doctor, a lollipop maker, doesn't even matter, the business, everyone kind of goes through the same journey that you've been on. So what are some of the big challenges? What are some of the surprises that hit you as you've been trying to grow and scale this business? Especially the transition into more specialized. Tell us about some things that kind of surprised you.

22:25  The biggest transition was learning how to run a business based on metrics and having a plan first. You know, when the money is good, when revenue is coming in and people are happy and things are functioning, like you think, great, you know, I'm a successful entrepreneur, I'm a businessman, or I'm a business person or whatever. But if you don't have metrics and you're running your business based on gut and feel, that's a really, really dangerous spot. Whereas now we're to the point where, oh, if we can just look at the numbers, oh, we're gonna have a cash crunch in eight and a half months. So we need to start planning now because we can see that based upon what the numbers are telling us and we can plan for it as opposed to, oh no, we don't have any money, what happened? And that was probably one of the hardest things of you go from having to run your business, which especially early on, takes a whole lot of time to then running your business. And now you have to learn how to think like an entrepreneur, how to work on your business and making that transition and that switch, like that's really tough. You know, I had to have some conversations with my family of like, hey, I'm going to be working more. I'm going to be putting in more effort, but just understand that this is an investment in my future self and our future family, because of the benefits that we're gonna receive later on. So you gotta kinda have to get some buy-in with those that are closest to you because once you make this switch, it's not going to be pleasant, at least for the first little bit.

23:00 I love it. I love it. It very rarely is, and it very rarely goes to plan. And as it does start to come to fruition though, tell us how good it feels. I mean, you've now been in this journey and niching down for over a year now. Do you feel like you're filling in? Is it, are things happening? Like, has it happened the way you hoped? What's going on?

23:23 Has it happened the way I hope? Not necessarily, just because like you said, as long as you're tracking, you're making adjustments all the time. Whereas if you just set a course and you never look at it until six months later and you realize your way off course, or your way on course, you just don't know. So we've had to make adjustments here and there, but that's because we're tracking. Things are obviously better. I don't work 70, 80 hours a week like I used to many years ago. I'm to a place where we've hired several attorneys, several case managers and paralegals and administrators. And we have a team now that supports us to where Mark and I can work on the functions where we see a benefit long-term. I'm responsible for marketing and sales. He's responsible for operations and finance. We're not necessarily down in the trenches where we're handling clients and cases day to day, but we're building that firm and that process for what it's gonna look like in the next three, five, 10 years. In addition to once you learn about business, you see opportunities. So we've got about two or three other businesses that we're working on the side as well, because when you see a need, you wanna fill it. And especially if no one else is there, or there's only a few, you've got a large market share, why not?

24:40 I love it. You caught the bug. James, I can't wait to catch up with you in a few years because I think that what you're doing and what you've described is a journey that so many entrepreneurs face. And a lot of founders, they do have a hard time getting distracted with things, but you have, it sounds like you've created the organization that you need to be able to sustain that. And a lot of people don't. They just get distracted while they are the main key player in their business. I love your journey. I love your story.

And I love how you've kind of gone through this process. And now you feel like you're a much more controlled business operator, as opposed to a on demand, I got to fix every problem in the business type guy. Is that what's happened?

25:23 Yeah, I mean, it really comes down to hiring. Like you have to put the best people in position to be successful and it's not all about you, it's really about them. So the more you invest in your team and building them up and giving them the training and onboarding and everything that they need to succeed, then that's where things really come together. You know, we learned hard lessons about you can be cheap early on, but it's really gonna cost you more in the end. So, you know, don't. Don't be cheap when it comes to staffing, invest in your team, invest in your people, build a culture that everybody wants to buy into. And then that's really where you get longevity. And then that scaling becomes easier.

26:04 I get it. Love it. James, every founder and every operator has someone who's either mentored or helped or been an impact on the way they've been able to grow and build a business. So is there someone you want to give a shout out to today that's kind of been there for you in your corner, helping to get to where you're at?

26:19 I gotta say the founder of how to manage a small law firm our RJon Robbins. 

26:25 Awesome.

26:26 We've had some time out on his boat and some one-on-one time and just being able to spend time with someone who in my mind is just a unicorn when it comes to entrepreneurship and business coaching to help us make changes and see them instantly before we even do. I mean, that's just been incredible.

26:45 Love it, love it. Thank him and thank you. We appreciate your time today, James. I honestly, this has been so great to hear your journey, your story, and I know it's impacting people that are listening. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And we wish you the best moving forward.

26:58 No, thank you, Todd. It's been fun. I've enjoyed it really.

27:05 Awesome. Okay, we'll see the rest of you on the next episode of the Growth and Scaling Podcast. Thanks for being here.