Todd Westra (00:06.932)Hey, welcome back to the show and I love meeting with multi-time founders and today we've got one in the studio. So Eli, who are you and what do you do?

Eli Portnoy (00:16.719)first of all, Todd, thanks so much for having me. and yeah, what we do is we help B2B businesses unlock a high velocity customer feedback load, which basically just means that most businesses talk to their customers a lot. And most of the time the broader business doesn't actually get to hear what those customers are saying. And we make sure that they do. We make sure that no matter what the customer is saying, good, bad, and ugly, the right people are seeing it so that they can take action on it.

Todd Westra (00:43.687)Okay, what kind of customers are these? Because I had a lot of things run through my head there. And who are you talking about specifically?

Eli Portnoy (00:51.254)Yeah. So typically we work with companies that their customer base are businesses. So we don't typically work with companies that are selling to consumers. We're talking to companies that sell to other businesses. And most of the time they're, selling large complex, high priced software services or, or similar, but it's high enough price where they are talking to those businesses quite often. They have a customer success manager and maybe an account manager and

Todd Westra (01:01.652)Right.

Todd Westra (01:11.209)Right.

Eli Portnoy (01:20.184)so on and so forth that are talking to them.

Todd Westra (01:22.761)So you're eavesdropping on the conversations? Like what channels are you monitoring for this kind of feedback?

Eli Portnoy (01:29.986)Yeah, so typically we're working with companies that are already recording the video calls that they're having with those customers or the calls that they're having. And also they're interacting with them in digital channels. So maybe through email or through Slack, maybe through support tickets. And so those would be the channels that we'd be monitoring, but we don't do any of the recording. just analyzing, yeah, so we just analyze the recordings that they're already conducting.

Todd Westra (01:34.846)Right.

Todd Westra (01:52.996)Interesting

Todd Westra (01:58.001Okay, so they're uploading and you just kind of analyze, are they selective of what they upload or do you have some way to like, hey, just stick everything here or do you tap into their dialers or like, how does that look like?

Eli Portnoy (02:10.702Yeah, we tap in. our system's fully automated, so they don't have to remember to upload. What they do is they set some rules with us, like only customer communications and only these customers and only these people on our team. They have a lot of flexibility to set that up however they want. But once it's set up, it's totally automated. As soon as a call or an email or a conversation happens, we'll automatically grab the transcript, analyze it, and then make sure that if the call says,

Todd Westra (02:15.933)Right.

Todd Westra (02:25.704)Gotcha.

Eli Portnoy (02:37.838)like some product feedback that that goes to the product team. they talk about, if they give you a really nice testimonial and they talk about how much they love the business, like that goes right to the marketing team and so on and so forth. So yeah, it's that, it's fun. Thank you.

Todd Westra (02:39.515)Right.

Todd Westra (02:46.682Right. Perfect. That's really cool. That's really cool. So this is definitely one of the smarter use cases of AI that I've heard. mean, for having owned a call center in the past, I know what a pain in the neck it is to go and like selectively pick one out of every thousand calls to listen to and actually feel like I knew what was going on on the floor. How does this tech work? And what do you, do you set cues for what it's listening for? Like how do you grade these interactions.

Eli Portnoy (03:18.188)Yeah, we do. the reason I started this company is because my background is in B2B businesses. I've been starting B2B businesses for the last 15 years or so. And every single time I felt like I bumped into the same problem over and over again, which is we had all these customers and those customers were telling us all this stuff on these calls and emails. And I never heard what I personally cared about.

Todd Westra (03:30.364)Love it.

Todd Westra (03:44.827)Right.

Eli Portnoy (03:45.292)I felt like everyone on the team had the same problem. so the way we would solve it is we would go to the people who were on those calls and we would say, Hey, like, what have you been hearing? What are people saying? And that felt like so, it was so translated and we never heard everything we want. It just wasn't great. the way the technology exactly, exactly. And you're hearing a telephone game and like they forget and they, it was, it was not good.

Todd Westra (03:55.835)Right.

Todd Westra (04:02.906)It's the telephone game and you only hear what they want to tell you.

Eli Portnoy (04:12.984)So the way the tech works is we basically create these mini agents, basically agents for every team. The product team gets its own agent and the CEO gets their own agent and the marketing team gets their own agent. And we set those agents up to basically analyze every single customer conversation through the lens that that agent was tasked with. the product team is, yeah, so it's kind of cool. Cause the product team is now going to like set the agent to say like anytime it's product feedback, anytime it's

Todd Westra (04:33.94)Wow.

Eli Portnoy (04:42.258)user stories, anytime it's like frustrations with the product, please make sure to tell us. And that agent can then feed that information back to the product team in whatever way they want. it can send it to them via Slack as it happens. It could send it to them as an email report once a week. could basically send it however they want. And so the way that tech works is basically we, every team gets their agent. Every agent is out there like finding that information and every team is getting exactly what they want to hear.

Todd Westra (04:42.502)Yeah.

Todd Westra (04:57.34)Crazy.

Todd Westra (05:09.821)Wow, so really you're setting up the persona that you wanna get the feedback from and then you overlay that on top of all communications or just selective communications or what does that look like?

Eli Portnoy (05:22.168)to the customer, but generally, it's all customer communication. So however the customer is talking to you, like the people can feel confident that they're going to hear what those customers are saying.

Todd Westra (05:23.43)Yeah. Right.

Todd Westra (05:31.633)That is crazy. Okay, so same phone call, you could have seven filters and those filters will then say, okay, to the CEO, this is what you were listening for, this is what we got. To the customer service team, they're doing this, and to the product team, they're all kind of listening with their own lens to the same conversation and getting what they want out of it. Okay, that is awesome.

Eli Portnoy (05:52.002)Yeah, because what we found like this. Thank you. No, the, the, I remember I had a call with a customer once and we, was a bunch of us were on that call. And at the end of the call, I looked around and I'm like, that was awesome. And the, the person next to me who was the customer success manager was like, that was an awful call. And then the, the marketer was like, yeah,There was some good and bad in there. And I went around the room trying to understand like, how did we have such different perspectives? And it's just because we all have different lenses. Like we cared about different things. And so you can't just have like one call analyzed one way. You've got to recognize that like different people are looking and caring and thinking about different things. And that that's the power of the platform in my opinion.

Todd Westra (06:25.86)Yeah

Todd Westra (06:32.7)Yeah.

Todd Westra (06:39.6)That's really funny. Now I'm thinking back of certain clients that I've had and sometimes they would pop in and do a little eavesdrop on a call and they were like, Todd, this is horrible. I can't believe they said that. And I was like, I listened to the same call and I was like, actually that was really good how they rebutted this challenge and they helped them work through it. And they were like, I mean, yeah, that was good, but like, anyway. So yeah, everyone's got their own lens and perspective of what's going on on these customer communications. How are you? Yeah, I mean, is this a, sounds like more of an enterprise deal or is this more of a small, like a mid-sized company could apply this or what are you looking at?

Eli Portnoy (07:21.41)Yeah, we find that basically anyone that has, you know, somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 plus customers starts to get value from us because that 50 customers, it's like hard to stay on top of everything that's happening. You have enough volume that there's like patterns and consistent themes that are coming out. And you probably have more than one or two people that are interacting with those customers. So you're already getting like sort of like multiple different people talking to them and not hearing the exact same thing. And so.

Todd Westra (07:43.247)Right.

Eli Portnoy (07:50.54)That's when we find that there's value, but we go all the way to the enterprise level. So we have customers from Series A with 50 customers and maybe a few million dollars in revenue all the way to multiple hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. So yeah, it's fun.

Todd Westra (07:50.766)Right.

Todd Westra (08:05.53)Wow, I love it, I love it. That's really, really cool. I mean, honestly, for those listening, this is a great problem to solve. This is a very unique solution set too. I've never met anyone doing something quite like this with AI yet, and I would imagine you're not gonna be the last one, but what are you doing differently to kind of connect the dots for your potential clients to say, holy crap, I really do need this?

Eli Portnoy (08:33.314Yeah, that's a really interesting question. And it's not a super obvious answer, at least for us it wasn't. Because in my opinion, the lifeblood of a business is customer feedback. If you can hear what your customers are saying, you retain them better, you give them a better experience, you build the right things, you focus on the right things. But it's a little bit of a leap of faith for people. I think most people would agree customer feedback matters, but how much should you invest? What's the ROI? That's always been really hard for people to answer. So what we've been doing is we've actually been doing this like big, study where we we've interviewed almost 200 people at this point and collect the data about like, does your business collect customer feedback? How do you share it? What do you do with it? And then we went out and we tried to understand, well, and what is your performance as a company? And we've correlated and what we found is that there is a very clear connection between how much effort they put into systematically collecting this customer feedback and how they grow.

Todd Westra (09:09.625)Wow.

Todd Westra (09:20.878Right.

Eli Portnoy (09:32.62)the churn that they have, the competitive win rates. And so we're gonna publish that study pretty soon. And I'm hoping that will make it much easier to tell that ROI story.

Todd Westra (09:34.574)Interesting.

Todd Westra (09:39.78)That's cool.I love it, I love it. All right, so now we understand what you do. Now I wanna know, this is not your first rodeo. It sounds like from what you said, 15 years of building and growing businesses and doing it, particularly in the B2B play, I love that. Walk me through, as you launch this business and have gotten it to where you're at at this point, are there some specific things you learned from prior businesses that you applied right away that were like, okay, I know this is gonna be problem and. And I hope we kill this before it becomes a bigger problem to where you've been able to grow the way you have.

Eli Portnoy (10:20.654)That's a great question. So my first business I started in 2011 and we were building a location based mobile ad network right when the iPhone got a GPS. So talk about like winds behind our tail. Like that was amazing. I didn't need to know anything about growth. I literally just needed to go out there and tell people the story. Exactly. It was just like amazing. Just collecting money from lots of places.

Todd Westra (10:38.295)Make sure you can fulfill.

Todd Westra (10:43.511)Lucky. Yeah.

Eli Portnoy (10:46.382Other thing that we had is in 2011, email was a really, really good marketing channel. Like we could just email people and get meetings. So not a lot of lessons to be learned from that. Like that, that era is gone. Yeah. And so that was awesome. But my second business was harder. So we launched that in 2014. And the basic idea around that business was there's all this new data that exists in the world. And

Todd Westra (10:51.298)Right, right.

Todd Westra (10:58.357)Right place, right time, good delivery method, yeah.

Eli Portnoy (11:14.796)the state is really valuable to big companies, but they don't really know how to collect this data. They don't know what to do with it. So we went out and we, licensed data from a bunch of different places. We turned it into dashboards and then we went and sold it to big enterprises, mostly restaurants and retailers. And we were working with like 30 of the top 50 restaurant chains as an example. And what we did then is we basically said, okay, well we have all this data already. Why don't we reach out to these,

Todd Westra (11:29.869)Right.

Todd Westra (11:34.797)Right.

Eli Portnoy (11:43.606)restaurant chains and basically not ask them not try to sell them not ask them for anything but just share the data that we have and basically share really valuable reports really valuable data offer to do free research for them and Once they start to see what we can do for them They're gonna want to do more and more and then we'll eventually find a way to turn it into a relationship and that worked really really well and that is a lesson that I've really tried to apply here where it's like don't sell by asking someone

Todd Westra (11:49.847)Right.

Todd Westra (12:02.489)For sure.

Eli Portnoy (12:11.168)if they want what you have or by trying to solve their problem, just like add value. And that's part of the reason we're doing this survey is like, can we find like really valuable things that we can share with people with that independent of our product? I haven't totally figured it out, but that's the big lesson I learned.Todd Westra (12:16.184)Right, right.

Todd Westra (12:28.462)Well, for those listening, this is a huge lesson. I think that it's a massive lesson. First of all, determine who you wanna ask the survey questions to, right? I mean, you gotta have a pretty good idea of who you wanna work with. But once you get those answers back on those surveys, I mean, it sounds like this is your second go-around of doing that in your kind of persona outreach kind of discovery phase. How is that? Have you been able to translate that into your marketing and see how you talk to people. Like, what does that look like in terms of growing from there?

Eli Portnoy (13:03.106)Yeah, I mean, my experience with like figuring out how to talk to folks and like what to say is so iterative. It's just like, I feel like when I started the business, I just had this idea of like, I'm just going to explain it this way. And then I would talk to people and explain it that way. And people like, yeah, cool, but not interested. And like, you just have to keep tweaking and tweaking and tweaking until like it…

Todd Westra (13:18.924)What? Right.

Eli Portnoy (13:30.742)I think of it a lot like a safe. Like if I was trying to crack a safe, I would put my ear really close to the safe and I would move the dial a little bit until I heard a click and then I'd move the dial back the other way. And you just have to be listening for the clicks and just trying and trying different stuff. that's been my approach.

Todd Westra (13:45.337)Yeah, I love it. And honestly, truthfully, so many people go out of business because they don't do that. They don't listen to the feedback and that literally this is the whole thing of your new business is like you're helping people make decisions based off actual feedback, not off of what you think that they're thinking, but what they're actually doing and actually saying. Is that right?

Eli Portnoy (14:12.462)That's exactly right. it's how I live my life. I really believe that the greatest gift that anyone can get is feedback. And it applies in every dimension. Like I tell my kids all the time, it's just like surround yourself with people who really have your best interest at heart and who are going to tell you the truth. If you do that, you're going to be a better person. I feel like I try really, really hard to make sure that as a company and a team, everyone's very comfortable just saying what they think and telling you

Todd Westra (14:14.04)Yeah

Eli Portnoy (14:42.528)If I mess up, like tell me, I don't want yes people. think it's the worst thing you can possibly have. So my whole life is around feedback. And that's why this business is something that really speaks to me because we try to empower other businesses to have access to feedback.

Todd Westra (14:46.297)Yeah, 100%.

Todd Westra (14:55.958)I love it, I love it. Honestly, I think there's so many use cases for your service. Obviously, enterprise makes a lot of sense, but I could see being able to somehow tailor this into a product team focus, almost like a module for product teams to incorporate in their businesses or for, yeah, again, keep doing what you're doing, because you're making money. But I can see this blossoming into almost little offshoot companies specifically catered towards a discipline within a business, a marketing module, you know, almost, anyway, I'm not gonna tell you how to do this, but my mind's going crazy because I love this concept of getting the feedback first and then growing based off what you're hearing. It's awesome.

Eli Portnoy (15:43.01)Thank you. Yeah. And I agree with you, by the way. think marketing teams are a really interesting one because one of the agents that we build out for all of our companies is basically sort of like a, a testimonial agent where it's just looking like, does any customer say something like super cool about how much they love the product and grab that and put it into like Slack or into email so that when you're trying to build out marketing collateral, you've got like all these testimonials and I feel like there's more we could do there. There's more we could do on the product side. There's

Todd Westra (15:55.606)Yeah.

Todd Westra (16:03.104)I love it.

Todd Westra (16:10.987)That is so cool.

Eli Portnoy (16:12.64)It's, think there's a lot to do. That's part of the problem. Too much to do, not enough time.

Todd Westra (16:16.056)Well, it sounds like you're on the right track. And as you move forward with the changes, obviously the experience that you're bringing into this business being one of your newest shiny object that you're really finishing up here, as you think about the potential for scaling and growth, and as you think about the decisions you made now that have brought you here, What are some big challenges that you're seeing that you maybe weren't anticipating that you're still ideating on how to fix?

Eli Portnoy (16:51.138)The biggest one for me is that before large language models, before generative AI, it was impossible to build what we're building. Like we really need them to be able to analyze all these different customer communications, which also means that no one's ever bought a tool like ours in an enterprise. Like there is no, there's no like precedent. It's not like I can go and say, Hey, you know that

Todd Westra (17:11.754)Aha, interesting.

Eli Portnoy (17:17.838)tool you have, let me replace it with this. This is a net new thing. And it's a tough environment. Yeah, it's a tough environment to sell something that new because what people are trying to do is have fewer things, not more things, just given the economy and consolidation and stuff like that. So part of what we have to do is we have to evangelize why customer feedback matters so much. What is the ROI around it? And make the case that even though they don't have one and there isn't something to replace.

Todd Westra (17:22.304)Crazy.

Todd Westra (17:29.833)Right.

Todd Westra (17:38.42)Right.

Eli Portnoy (17:44.322)that they should still put it into the organization. And that was a challenge I didn't quite anticipate. I just felt like everyone would instantly understand the value of getting access to this. But that's not how it works.

Todd Westra (17:55.173)That is not how it works. And let's be honest, mean, most of the times executive teams, especially in an enterprise situation, they've got a lot of other fish they're trying to fry and cutting costs is definitely their big priority, no matter how good the product is, right?

Eli Portnoy (18:08.556)Yeah, that's definitely true, especially in this environment, in this market where there's a lot of pressures.

Todd Westra (18:17.099)That is true. But looking at what you've got ahead of you and looking at the problem that you're trying to solve, what advice do you have for other people that are kind of in this boat of, okay, we've got a really cool, shiny object. We're hitting this new, as you mentioned, a new offering that doesn't even exist out there using a tool that three years ago, most people had no idea what it was. How would you suggest someone goes about that in trying to penetrate market share?

Eli Portnoy (18:53.09)I mean, I think it's really hard because we're really what we're talking about is creating a new category and creating a new category is really, really, really hard. So I think the first thing you have to make sure when you're creating a new category is that you're actually solving a pain point, that there's real benefit to using it. And it isn't just something that's cool then that you're building it just because it can be built. And I think once you do that, you have to really identify the pain that you're solving and find ways of

Todd Westra (18:57.812)Yeah.

Todd Westra (19:11.785)Yeah. Yeah.

Eli Portnoy (19:19.32)quantifying what that pain looks like and articulating it with as many user stories as you can. So one of the things that we're spending a lot of time on is testimonials, case studies. Basically, the thing that was super interesting to me in trying to sort this out for ourselves was we had all these people that were using it, that were loving it and getting so much value and becoming raving fans around it. And I kind of realized like, that's the easy part. Now I have to figure out how to create new raving fans. But leveraging them and leveraging all of the fact that we do have Raven fans is I think the biggest thing that we can do. So that would be my advice is quantify it, make sure you're focused on a pain and leverage your existing customers as much as you possibly can to tell the story for you.

Todd Westra (20:04.022)I love it. It's fascinating that you use that terminology because a lot of, as a marketer, when I talk to a founder or a CEO about what is the pain that you solve, a lot of them don't recognize that as something that's even that important. And what you're doing is you're really focusing on what pain you're solving, which surprisingly, I'm shocked at how many people, when I say that, look at me with a blank look in their face. Why is that so important for people to know?

Eli Portnoy (20:36.952)Because at the end of the day, there are basically two things that you can sell into a business, at least into another business, like a B2B type sale. You can sell a vitamin or you can sell a painkiller. And in every market, it's hard to sell a vitamin, especially in this environment. You have to be selling a painkiller. Otherwise it's just too tough. that's why you have to make sure that you know the pain so that you can at least articulate how what you have is a painkiller and not a

Todd Westra (21:06.453)Totally. Just as you were saying that, I was thinking back to the age of a blockbuster video and how they felt so impenetrable, like they had this massive reach because they were in so many locations and how could anyone compete with them? And they stopped listening to what the problem was. Nobody wanted to go to the store, even if it was right down the street. And the red box and some of those other, the Netflix. delivering a DVD to your house became like, holy cow, that's a whole new experience. And they solved the pain of having to drive back to the store every two or three days, right? So as you help companies understand this, walk me through this. How do you foresee this growing in the next few years? Because I see your solution as being really, really powerful.

Eli Portnoy (22:00.718)I hope so. And I wish I had the answer. We're definitely still figuring it out because that's the stage that we're in. But what we're seeing is that if we can keep building the product and making it solve real pain for folks and we can find a way to articulate the ROI, I think we'll be able to get a whole bunch of business users to want it. And at least that's what we've seen so far. We've been able to crack the code for at least the early stage that we're in.

Todd Westra (22:07.827)I love it.

Eli Portnoy (22:30.286)But the biggest thing is we're gonna collect feedback along the way and make sure that we're doing it the right way and figuring it out.

Todd Westra (22:30.494)Right, right.

Todd Westra (22:36.318)I love it. Well, being that you're a feedback company, I'm sure you're gonna figure it out the right

Eli Portnoy (22:42.135)I hope so.

Todd Westra (22:43.326)But one last thought before closing because I really feel like you've probably got a good answer for this. And as you look back at what you did with the other companies and as you look at what you're trying to do with this company and the path you're now taking to kind of fast track that learning experience of getting those first few clients, what did you do to get your first few clients? As you were iterating this product, When was it too early to bring to a client and when was it just the right time and when did you, because a lot of people get stuck trying to perfect things before they release. Will you kind of walk us through your mindset of where you were when you first introduced your first few clients?

Eli Portnoy (23:28.684)Yeah, I mean, I don't think you can ever be too early to talk to a prospect. I think you need to start talking to them when you're at the very initial stages of conceptualization of the idea. Because like, you don't want to build something in an ivory tower and then come to the market and say, I built this thing and then find out no one cares about it. Like you might as well be like, I've got a napkin with like a sketch of an idea. What do you think? Give me it again, goes back to feedback, right? We just want to get the feedback as early as possible. So

Todd Westra (23:38.95)I love it. Love it.

Todd Westra (23:47.965)Right?

Todd Westra (23:53.448)Right.

Eli Portnoy (23:57.986)I started talking to prospects before I even knew what the idea was. And it was a totally different idea. And those conversations led me to this idea and led me to this pain and led me to this product that we're building. And so I've been talking to them since day one. I probably do, I don't know, 15 to 20 customer or prospect conversations every week. And I learned from every single one of them. So yeah, if there's any advice I have for anyone, every single week, every week I'm doing that.

Todd Westra (24:08.625)I love it.

Todd Westra (24:19.304)Bye bye. And you still do that?

Eli Portnoy (24:27.016)Because like, if there's any advice I have for folks is like, talk to people as quick as you can. One of the things I find with like first time entrepreneurs is they get very nervous that someone's going to steal their idea. And so they don't talk to people. They really don't talk. And if they talk to you, they're they're cagey. It's like, no, that's the opposite way. I have never ever, ever had an idea be stolen. What I've had is bad ideas. And I'd rather know if it's a bad idea. And I'd rather have people help me find the right idea.

Todd Westra (24:27.171)I love it.

Todd Westra (24:37.18)Yeah. It's crazy!

Eli Portnoy (24:55.958)And I also find that when I talk to people, even if the prospect isn't the right prospect, they still remember. And then I can come back to them a year later when the product is built and sometimes they make introductions. It's just like, as soon as you have an idea, go talk to people.

Todd Westra (25:00.007)Right.

Todd Westra (25:07.835)I love it.I love it, that's really, really awesome advice. I couldn't have asked for better advice for, I would say, 95 % of startups out there. It's just, don't be perfect, just start asking. Just start asking, and regular asking, it always makes the product better, so I love it, fantastic advice.

Eli Portnoy (25:29.614)Thanks Todd. Yeah. lots of scar tissue to get there.

Todd Westra (25:33.776)Lots of scar tissue. Well, this is a great product. And for those listening who are interested in this thing, I will tell you right now, the show notes are gonna have all the details. And I would suggest you go take a look at it and watch how Eli and his team are gonna iterate this because we are catching him with definitely some, he's definitely building some strong cashflow right now. But he's in that growth stage. He's in that moment where it's like, okay, think. We got it down, let's go now. And for those of you listening, a lot of you are there. And a lot of you feel like you're a mile away from it. But for those that have ever been past that point of where you know you've got product market fit, it's just a game of watching how the language slightly changes. The feedback is gonna make all the difference. And Eli, I can't wait to see where this goes in here.

Eli Portnoy (26:24.628)Thank you, Todd. I really appreciate that.

Todd Westra (26:27.247)You bet. And for those listening, please don't hesitate to jump on board and see what you're doing wrong with your, what is keeping you from growing and talk to some mentors, talk to people like Eli. I'm assuming you've got someone you've had in your back pocket that you bounced these things off of Eli.

Eli Portnoy (26:46.078)yeah, I have multiple advisors. I've always had them. Again, it goes back to feedback. So yeah, five, six people that I consistently reach out to every time I have an issue and I need help.

Todd Westra (26:58.417)Well, thank you so much and I cannot wait to catch up with you later. Thanks for being part of the show. We really appreciate you taking the time to do this because, you know, growth time is busy time, but this is an exciting time for you.

Eli Portnoy (27:12.162)Thank you, Todd. Thanks for having me. was really fun.

Todd Westra (27:15.405)All right. And boom. Eli, how'd that feel,Eli Portnoy (27:20.276)was good. You're amazing. You're so good. You've got so much energy and the questions were great. I really appreciate you.

Todd Westra (27:28.175)You bet, man, I'm genuinely intrigued. I get interested in a lot of different business models I hear, but this one in particular, I definitely see where the pain is that you're solving. And it's always fun to get on the bandwagon with those because sometimes you're like, is that really an issue? Sometimes I question how they're making money, but they do.

Eli Portnoy (27:53.366)Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Todd Westra (27:55.493)Funny. Well, that's awesome, dude. Well, thank you. Thank you.