1:22  Hey, welcome back to the show, and today, I've got a special friend. AP, will you tell us who you are and what do you do?

1:29  Sure, Hey, Todd, I am I'm a salesperson that ended up in the energy world, and now I'm the lucky owner of a company that I started with, what, nearly 1516, years ago. I love it, so that's who I am. I'm a big proponent of sustainability, energy management. That's really been my bread and butter for most of my life now. And I'm running a company that I love has very much been a part of me and my story since my 20s now. So I love it not to date myself.

 2:10  So 15 years, that makes you 31 right? Yeah, about that? About that awesome? So a fe, give us a load out, because you say you're in the energy business, you say you worked there 15 years ago. Like we've got a lot to dive into a story I want to know. First of all, what does your company do? What do you do in energy? How does, how does what you do affect who's your client? Give us the lowdown. Okay,

2:36  so in cycle was this brainchild of two inventors, both really, actually extraordinary human beings, but two inventors that during the big shutdown of the grid on the East Coast back in the early 2000s Yeah, I used to happen to be reading books about emergence theory, which is the whole idea of like, looking at nature to solve some of our biggest problems. And one of our biggest problems is the fact that as a society, we tend to be energy hogs. So how do you basically look to nature? And they picked swarm, right? How how swarm works, how bees and ants and etc, work together to accomplish interesting, big things, yeah, and they built this technology that essentially it back in the day, they used to be controllers on rooftop units that would talk to each other, and then, based on the information I heard from everybody, it would make an independent decision. So it was like aI before AI became cool, if that makes it, wow, um Yeah, totally. Everyone talks about AI machine learning. Well, we've been doing it for nearly two decades, like it's not, it's not new and fancy to us, like we've been doing this, wow. And we've been doing for a long time. We do it really well. And so that was back in the controller days. Today we actually fully deployed through software based so it is, it is a one file load. It doesn't matter what building type it is, wow. And takes, like, 20 minutes and you're up and running and you can connect, and it saves, it saves customers. Like, if I look at like a retail, big box store, it tends to be the area that we work in. We save customers anywhere from 12 all the way up to 30% Holy crap, energy usage of the book. Well, buildings are and are to use. In particular are the kind of energy pigs. They're not. They're not super well, well,

4:33  of course. I mean, there's a lot of lot of people leaving lights on, right, people, and there's a lot of unnecessary on.

4:41  Yep, lots of people leave their heating and cooling on. And heating and cooling units are generally speaking or not. They're not necessarily, they're built to satisfy comfort. They're not built to necessarily do that in the most optimal fashion. And so that's really where we come in, because we come in and we. We optimize those units in five minute increments, so every five minutes, our logic is making a new decision on how best to run those units. It's really that right? It's actually really amazing.

5:12  It's and it's constantly learning, and it's constantly making it more efficient, constantly

5:17  adapting, constantly looking at the outside variables like thermal load and what are the RTU doing? And also looking historically back, we throw out no data. So like, how has that unit, under these circumstances, historically acted, and therefore, what can they expect? Like, it's it really is fantastic technology, and I guess it's close to my heart, because when I started, it was the two co founders and then myself, right? So, yeah, you know, I was the Gunslinger, young Bucha salesperson that they brought in who I'd been cold calling in New York. So I'd been told, I mean, New Yorkers are not, not kind to cold call. No, no, especially cold collars.

6:04  Yeah, you're not. 

6:06  So I'd been cold calling in New York, so I had really thick skin, and they were this little baby startup in Toronto. Um, yeah, nobody heard of and you know when you're going to talk to because the people that we work with have got, like, big building automation systems, right? They've got Honeywell systems or Next Wave systems or train in there, right? They're not, they're not companies that are necessarily going to listen to like a three person startup out of Toronto, right,

6:32  right. Sorry, right, right, right.

6:34  So they needed someone with a thick skin. And I was, I was a young immigrant in Toronto that I needed, I just needed work, and yeah, and so I was, I wasn't afraid to call. And at the time, like we were literally, I was cold calling on one side of the desk, and they were assembling controls on the other side of the desk, like that started. So I've been there, and I was, I was the one that sold their first big, their first big customers and their first big sales, and got them their first couple of national accounts. So, like, I really love it. Seen it come along. Yeah, it's pretty Yeah.

7:12  So, so you started to grow the business. You were the you were the odd, you were the third wheel and the bike and and as you started to third wheel this thing, you started to grow the team. And then at some point, you left for a short spell, walk us through that. And how did that feel when you, when you decided, You know what, I'm gonna spread my wings and try something different.

 7:35  Um, you know, I the company at that point, with the company nine, nearly 10 years. Um, wow. And I was their consecutively, their their top salesperson. Um, right, their entire customer base had been attributed to work that I almost entirely did by myself. So, like, I was right, was it right? I was a big reason for success, but I'd also reached the point in my career where I was looking to because I think when you're in sales, there comes a point in your career where you're making a decision that I'm either going to go into leadership or I'm going to stay in sales, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, if you're very financially focused. You're you tend to pick, I'm going to stay in sales, because you're always going to make more money Sure, doing Sure, versus if you are looking for leadership, then you know you're going to make a different decision, which is, I'm going to then go and pursue a director of sales or a VP of sales, right? I kind of got to the point where, like, my next logical jump needed to be a VP of sales, and, yeah, and at the time we we were in between VP of sales, and I really wanted that position, and I just couldn't, I couldn't get the support to take it at in cycle, yeah, um, I think some of that was because they really wanted to keep me in sales, because they didn't want to lose that

8:58  research. You were the you were the one bling and bringing all the fresh juice to squeeze, right? I mean, that's, there

9:04  was definitely a little bit of that. And then I think some of it is, you know, as much as, as much as the world has changed in a lot of ways within our industry, it's still not super heavy on the female quotient of the makes sense. And I think, you know when they looked at me, and then they see these other big, shiny resumes that come from all the right schools, and you know for sure all the right names. Mine doesn't necessarily like. I'm the I'm a scrappy little immigrant from Africa who lived in Canada, right? But, and my success has been because I just didn't really have a choice, like I just I it was either be successful or or failure has just never been an option. So, sure, sure. So yeah. So my risk made it necessarily look like everybody else. So I ended up going to another company, and I took a VP of sales role there, and I learned a lot. I failed at some. Things, but I learned a ton. I did some executive mentorship. So for anybody that ever is looking to become a VP of sales, don't do it unless you actually have a mentor. Set up, lined up. Love it. That is probably the best piece of advice I can give someone, um, right? Most VPs of sales today, I think the statistic has only last like, seven months. Like, it's not long, right? Is that? Right? Yeah, it's really short. It's like you're dead man walking. The moment you start.

10:35  It's very everyone's out to get you, yeah?

10:38  Well, because the thing is, like, people will hire a VP of sales role, and then just believe, like, oh, we have a VP of Sales the pipe. We're going to turn on the  pipe. 

10:46 Yeah, yep, the pipeline is going to start filling. Just, it doesn't work

10:50  like that, right? Like the VP of Sales really needs, they need to come in and they need to learn how to sell the product first, right? Because VP of Sales can't tell you how to sell the product until they themselves know how to sell the product totally, and particularly when you're in startup land, right? Like, yeah, there's so many founders that they they come up with a really, really cool idea, but because they don't necessarily understand sales, and they don't know how to go and figure out what route, yeah, you need to take to get in, that's kind of like the first fail point. So yeah, you really need someone that understands that piece. But it's no different with the VP of sales. When you, when you get your first VP of sales, like, That person needs to go and learn how to sell it, and then that person has totally the playbook. And if that person doesn't have like, you really need to have somebody like a mentor. That's not necessarily there 100% of the time, but if it's your first VP of sales job, you better be sure that you got that person and that that person can help mentor you and guide you and teach you the things that you don't know, because this is where I made my mistake. I thought because I was a good salesperson, that I would automatically be able to lead a good sales team, right,

12:02  right? It does not different thing. They are not

12:05  Yeah, yeah. And so I had to, like, I had to go learn that. And I learned that, like, that's where I got, like, some of my chops on that, um, yeah. But I had to learn that being a good salesperson did not equate and so I had to actually go and learn from. I went and got mentorship. And it wasn't like, it was like I would meet with this gentleman, Scott, least he's amazing. But I would, oh, I know Scott. Oh, okay, here

12:32  you go, yeah. So I would meet the surfing sales trainer, yep, that's it, yeah, I know Scott. Yeah. All LinkedIn buddies, yep. So

12:40  I did, I did training with Scott, and it was like, I'd meet with him for like an hour once a week on a Tuesday morning before my kids woke up. And it was during COVID too. So like, my kids were, yeah, I had a newborn. It was all, it was all exciting. Um, but I would meet with you every Tuesday morning, and I would just, I would just sit and just, like, ask him stuff, whether it was like, stuff that I felt like I was failing at or that I could improve at right challenges. And, you know, he was, he was incredibly helpful. And then, of course, as part of surf and sales, like the Thursday night podcast that they would like, it was, it was right, it was no, I

13:17  remember I was on a few of his calls. I yeah, when he, when he was kind of getting going on his social during COVID, I was getting my podcast going, so he, he's been on my podcast, and, yeah, I so much respect for Scott Lee's great guy.

13:32  He's a great guy. So he was the one, sorry, he was the one that taught me basically all of the stuff that I didn't know I needed to be a good VP, yeah, and so I saw a pretty quick turnaround, like, once I understood where I was essentially letting down my team, we saw really quick turnaround there, and I was in that role for four years. So, like, it's not like, well, right? So I, I far exceeded you, lasted

14:04  four times, five times the average, yeah.

14:07  So we're good, but it's because of that mentorship. So for anybody that's

14:13  that's a really smart, that's a real I am so glad you're here, and I just want to take a few seconds to tell you about a program that we have assembled with a lot of our podcast guests and a lot of people who are listening to the show who are feeling the same way that they do. There's a recurring theme. You'll hear a lot of these founders talk about, I couldn't have done it without my team. I couldn't have done it without a support group of peers. I couldn't have done it without having someone to talk to that understood my feeling of isolation as an operator my business, you see you're not alone. It is hard running a business, and it's even harder when you know you can't express all your deepest concerns and frustrations with your Exec. Team. It makes them nervous. It gets them scared. You don't want scared people on your executive team. So where do you turn the Captain's Council is where you turn the Captain's Council. It is an organization that we are put together with podcast guests as well as people who are listening, who are in the same boat. You see peers are the only ones that can give you the type of empathy, the type of advice that only a founder or operator know and understand. Go check it out@captainscouncil.com I know you're gonna love what you see there. We have put together an organizational structure that has small group settings, a global community of founders and operators, as well as monthly and quarterly in person events. You're gonna love what you see there. I can't wait for you to check it out and enjoy the rest of this episode. Really smart thing to say. I honestly, I have so much respect for you, because most sales people and directors of sales have a high ego, and it's like, Nope, I just figured out my own I'm the best of the best and and yet to hear you say that is a very, very awesome thing to hear. And I would also say that, as a CEO of a company, mentorship is very, very relevant as well. And I'm guessing that's where you're going with this. 

16:20  Yep, I do.I have mentorship today. I ever since that, because you're right. Like, I used to go on LinkedIn, right? And I was like, feel like, I'm not, I'm not hitting it out the park, right? Because you like, you know, yeah. And I kept going on there, and every time I would, like, look for articles and stuff, you're right, it's like, it's all the well, how do you not know this? But people don't right? People don't just know this right? And it was, I think it was actually Scott that, like, wrote up a thing about mentorship, and I started following him. And then eventually I just, like, found the, found the hot spot to actually, like, just ask him if he would please. I love it. Mentor me. And he did. He took me on, and I learned so much. I love it, and as a result, I probably I keep getting complimented about, like, my playbook and all of the content, and, yes, it's stuff I created, but I would not have created that if it had not been for Scott. So, like, one of huge kudos. But yes, anybody doing it, if you're going into leadership, do not, don't sit and wonder if you're doing a good job. Go get a mentor. 

17:29  I think is, I think it's fantastic advice. And I'll tell you, most founders assume that nobody else can help them. And one of the first things I learned about doing this podcast is that, you know, even though I've been a CEO of my own companies, I've been a founder my whole life, I've never actually had a job and and every time I found a new company, I feel so empowered that I'm figuring it out on my own, and I don't need anybody else, and I just do it. But the reality is, is that when you do tap into other people in the industry you're in, especially you do learn shortcuts, and you do learn things that that, guess what? We're all kind of in this together. Let's, let's play together nicely, instead of feeling like we got to be pitted against each other. And when you do that, you do start to feel a unifying and a level of comfort in the industry, because it's not just you that sees it that way. It's them. Is them and and you're able to create the the culture of the industry, yeah, a lot of ways.

18:30  And we're seeing more of, I will say we I am seeing more of that now in our industry. Um, I think some of that's also got to just do with like, the change in technology. Sure you mentioned that you had been in this industry a while back, right? Yes, I was, yeah. So when I started in this I was a big Crestron dealer, yeah, a lot of lighting controls, yep. So back when I started, right? The reason that we were in the controller and not in the cloud already, was because building automation systems just can't do it like they're not, right? They weren't, they weren't fast enough. It was dial up, like you're not talking to a building every five minutes the way that we do today, right? That's not a threat, right? And so we really had to wait for building automation systems to come along, and there are a bunch of them that have come along, and they've realized that, you know, at the end of the day, and this is something that I think is going to be actually quite changing for the entire industry. So we've got all of these cloud based startups like myself essentially right that we look at the world through a different set of lenses than you would as a hardware controls vendor, because it's a different thing. And I feel like within our industry, a lot of there's 50% of the industry that has realized that a building automation system is no different to your phone, right, right, right, and then there's a whole bunch of. And there's like, it's a building automation system. It is. It is a building automation system, but at the end of the day, it is still technology. And the one thing that Apple and Google and all of the rest have taught us is that, yeah, our experience is going to be dominated by the apps on our technology. And so I feel like within this industry, like we're right at the point where you've got building automation systems that have acknowledged that, and so they are moving towards integration with more cloud based stuff, and then you've got some of the originals. They're like, No, you will only use my stuff, right? But you're not allowed to do that. What do you mean, right? And so I think it is. I think we see a very interesting change in dynamic over the next, probably five years, because it takes a long time, and we work with utilities. So 15 years, yeah, we are going to see, and I it's going to be very interesting, I think for me, because I've seen it from like 2000 and what eight all the way, yeah, through to now and then whatever goes to come. So I am, I am

21:07  well, and that's a look back, and that's a very, that's a very interesting timeline, though, because, you know, I clearly remember 2006 was really the time when cloud came out. It was, that was what, that was when the time. And I remember being so excited about that for our automation systems that we were building and programming, that we could finally have that growth in the fact that we could remotely administer, yep, our buildings and our offices in our homes that we were controlling, yep. And it was awesome. So you've kind of seen this whole advent of everything coming so digitized, yeah, and I love it. And you keep talking about your business as a startup, I wish you a very mature company at this point it is.

21:49  It's funny. I still look at it as startup. I think because a lot of the company that is still like the if you were to look at like in cycle, as the core, the group that is together, we have been working together for the better part of 10 years now. I left for a portion of that because i had i there were lessons I needed to go and learn.  And I Scott, and I went and realized that I did not want to be in residential controls. That was something I enjoyed. That's a good realization. Oh, my God, yes, it is. I also realized that I really love working with national accounts, and I missed, I missed my interactions with national accounts, because it's just so goal orientated, right? Like they have a vision as to where they want to go, and being able to interact with them on that vision, and then helping them see that.

22:38  And they don't change their mind as often as a frequent, 

22:42  Actually, different game. So I prefer, I definitely prefer national accounts like, that's my heart is I like energy efficiency and demand response and demand like, again, that's my heart is so doing. As much as I enjoyed smart home for while I was in it and it gave me, it taught me. I managed to meet Scott. I learned a lot that's not where my my career is not ending in smart home. It's I definitely back into the space I love it, and I get to work with the utilities much more closely than I did before, like it's just this is where my heart is. So it was good. Yeah, back. But if you look at the core of our company, we've been together 10 plus years now. So you love it. It's not thought up, but

 23:26  Right, right, right. So as you look though at at what, what because you were there during the initial startup stage and the initial growth, versus you leaving, learning new skills coming back, what are some things that you've been able to implement as you came back into the company, became the CEO and and really started to kind of engage in a different I'm guessing, you came in with a different mindset, different level of growth mindset, yep. How did you translate that into growth, and what were some kind of key decisions you made to do that. Um,

24:.01 I think for the first time, I understood that in order to make money, you have to spend money

24:07  Yeah, unfortunately, yeah.

24:11  When you're when you're in true startup land, you watch, you're very nervous on the space, which I could completely like it's not necessarily a bad thing, but sometimes it does make sense to just spend a little bit because it makes you look bigger than you are. So, you know, 100% that is really, really important. Um, the other thing is actually being able to replicate a deal.

24:41  So okay, what do you mean? 

24:45 When I was a good salesperson in a sales role, true sales role, I replicated everything I did, and it's something that I kind of forgot to take with me into a sales leadership role, and was something that Scott reminded me of, that it's all about replication. So this is why. So important that you have to understand how to sell your products, right? Yeah. So when I came back to in cycle at that point, we were no longer doing controllers, right? We were no longer installing hardware and then doing ZigBee to internet, yeah, you like, it wasn't a science project anymore, basically, right? Like, we grown up, yeah, we're now fully in the cloud and fully deploying through existing infrastructure, right? And with that came the ability to actually sell an incredibly scalable solution, right? So the fact that you can just install it in 20 minutes and go, Yeah, like that. That's magic, right? It is magic, yeah, before you had to roll a truck, and then you had to get it all set up, and you had to install it was, you know, so there was hardwire  and IP configuration.

25:48  Yep, firewalls, yep, all that,

25:53  So, and then we were also communicating much, I mean, we're, we're, like, almost at real time communication optimization with those buildings, right? It's, it's Wow. It's as scalpel driven as you can get in terms of optimizing those duty cycles. Um, wow. And because we've been doing it for so long, we're really good at it, right? RTS are hard, and we do them so well. Like, people don't even, like, there is no change in comfort. In fact, we actually have case studies that show that comfort improves when you're engaged, which is amazing. Sure, we can save you money and we can optimize it, and it drives sustainability goals, and it saves you money, and it's comfort that's awesome, right? So, like, it checks all the boxes, but the one thing that I needed to do was figure out how I went and sold this to our customer base today, which was something that, like in cycle. It had like one or two sales in my absence, but they hadn't really grown too much, and they hadn't figured out how to replicate success. And it's when you can figure out how to replicate that success is where you can start to get too much more of a much more of a pipeline that you can rely on. And so sure, for me, that was really important. So when I came back, I immediately, because I do have a lot of relationships with my within the national accounts world, like I'm not an unknown. So I went and I went and started having conversations with people within that marketplace and talking to them and trying to understand, like, what are the problems that they're trying to solve, and then seeing how this kind of fits in with that. And then the sales team. I also, I also kind of like their wings, we've been very clipped, and I also kind of took that away. So yes, I want, yes, I want them to follow a process. However, I still want them to be them. I don't want them to like, pre programmed robots running around. Because right wants that right people, and I also the people that we brought on also had national account customers and relationships like they were trusted, smart,

28:01  um, yeah. So you you brought relationships more so than a just a random person that fills a role,

28:09  yes, and you know how we did that was because I have relationships within this group. I could go and ask, yeah, who do you enjoy interacting with? At

28:19  oh so smart, right?

28:22  Who looks off? Yeah. Well, who do you respect? Who would you

28:26  and my guess, yeah, my guess is that you probably could even go into because a lot of people don't think about the fact that they're not the only ones attacking a specific client, right? And so if you're attacking that client, chances are there's 10 other people attacking the same client, and by asking them who they like to work with, you can go snipe someone from a totally different industry working with the same type of client,

28:52  yep. And so that's literally what we did. I love it. And so our team is built around because, particularly within the space, right, you're not one. You're not going to get a second chance, right. So you've been right the first time. Secondly, you really want your you really want customers like they want they need to feel comfortable and they need to trust you. Because, again, right, in the industry that has been burnt by, you know, there's this, like, amazing little black box and solve all of your problems, um, like, they've been there, they've done that. So you can't, like, you can't sound like the old proverbial record that they've heard a million times, right? Like a lot of people walk in and say, I can save you 15% All right? So can you and every other company out there, right? Like, what? What problem are you actually solving for me? You say you can tell me 15% you can send me 15% but is it really like there's, there's nuances within those discussions, and if the, if the people that are working for you are not trusted by the customer, you're never having those conversations, right? So, for. Sure that's kind of how we built it. And I did, I implemented everything that Scott had taught me, right? So, like, we have a playbook, and it's fully loaded, and I have a tech stack, and I've put things in place that help remove the barrier to entry, right, which is also really important, right? I don't think there's enough VP of sales that realize that their job is actually to ensure that your sales people don't have friction, right? Like that is your role is, like, get rid of the friction. Yeah, sometimes that means you've got to show up, like you're showing up to customer meetings with them, and that's fine, but there's other things in there, like getting it permission, having all of the supporting documentation for that, being able to get the right people on the front like, these are all barriers to entry that I don't think a lot of people like, think much past totally and so that totally and so we so we started Spending a little bit more money than we had historically spent, and we were also pretty clever about how we engage with our customers, right? Yeah, and yeah, we put people in place that understood our customers and that had worked with our Yeah, one of my sales people used to be an energy manager at a national retail so like she understands the problem. 

31:22 Wow,  She has the pain points of the people she's trying to talk to. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, those are really smart. You know, what, one of the things that I hear most frequently on this show is that the, some of the biggest challenges with growth are people, processes, and tools, and, and you described a really fantastic way to, to bring in the right people, to bring in the right. The right relationships. And, and that is such a big thing. And so, you know, I would say, you know, first of all, thank you for, for sharing your experience because your experience is so unique. I love the fact that you were there in the start, you built, built, built, you left, you came back with a new set of skills. And they recognize your new skills and they're like, dude, AP, take it, just go make this thing happen. And I think that that's a fun story to share is, you know, this advice, how do you encapsulate that in a way that, that, uh, for those listening, cause a lot of people are in that transition stage of like, I want to climb out of startup mode.I want to get into this growth stage. What's your advice as a CEO to them to, to help them kind of. Climb over that ledge where they're not the ones being the main producers of the company. 

32:39  you got to trust your team and you need to enable your team. Um, and sometimes that means that you get out of the way. Um, you're sitting and asking your sales person every single day, like what have they done for you is not necessarily helpful versus asking the question of rather. Um, what's, what's the barrier that's in place that I can help remove, right? Um, and then also you do need to be able to take your knowledge on how to sell this thing and disseminate it well. And I think where people fall down is they're not necessarily very good at that piece of it. So they will have success really by luck versus success. That is, can be done again. It makes sense. Um, right. If you hire the right sales person, they'll figure out how to do it regardless. But you know, there's a lot, there's a lot of salespeople that could potentially be very, very good, but they just need a little bit of love and encouragement. Right. Also, you need to be able to teach. And if you can't sell your product, like if you haven't figured out how to do it as a founder and not that I'm technically a founder. That was pretty close. Um, if, if I can't sell it as a founder, how am I going to go and show somebody else how to sell it as a founder? Right. That point, it's the blind man. Like that's not, that's not helpful for anybody. Um, and so having that is really, really important. Um, and then just spend a little, spend a little bit of money to make yourself look bigger than you are, because it goes a lot further than people realize. Right. Yeah. Um, I remember a time where. People would hear in cycle and they used to think, Oh, it's a little startup, right? No money. And now people look at us and yes, we have growth and we have replication and we're a known brand, but we got there. By engaging with customers and we got there, we also did a massive rebrand of the company. Like  we took the time to spend the money to get where we needed to go. So we looked like the technology company that we are instead of we kind of like a school district. And so those things are important though. Like you need to understand. And again, that comes back to like, who am I talking to? What are they looking for? How am I going to show up? Right. And it's something is something as stupid as a business card. Like people like to think about a business card, right. And you can go and get like a 30 cent business card printed, right. Or you can spend just a little bit more and get something with. And that's your first impression, right? Like you're, you're leaving with someone. So it's, it's like, it's the little touches here and there that I also think just makes the difference. Right. Cause I. Nobody in my team shows up feeling like they're under supported or underfunded. Um, like we're not, we're not in that situation. And so we, and we won't act like we're in that situation, which is, it's really important, even when you're in startup land, it's really important to not show up like that, like you want to, you want to show up,  because it's confident.

35:56  Now, this is a confidence and people read the confidence and especially when you're going after big national deals like you are, you have to display yourself as bigger than you are because they don't know the difference and they're probably not going to do the research. If you know what you're talking about and you can sell yourself as being this solution provider. They're gonna believe you. Yeah. The way you show up, it's the way you show up. So, I appreciate this so much, and honestly, for those of you listening, I highly recommend you re-listen to this a couple times because it, it is such a fascinating story. Uh, to be able to come and learn the skills you need and get the mentorship you need to develop and build and grow the way you want to is so valuable, so important. Reinvest in yourself, reinvest in your business, and make sure that you've got that path. That you can take your business down AP. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here with our group. And, uh, we're going to put links to your bio and everything down below. So thanks again.

36:50  Thank you. I appreciate it.